Kristie Neo: Channel News Asia to DealStreetAsia VC Editor, Investigative Journalism, Unicorn Mismanagement (Revolution Precrafted) - E526

· VC and Angels,Southeast Asia,Blog

“Especially when you're working in subscription media, you really need to deliver stories that are of value to your users because they are paying for your stories. The only way to produce something valuable is by knowing exactly what concerns them—what they’re worried about, what they’re following, and what intrigues them. Understanding your reader audience really well is actually where I get all my stories from. You’ve got to understand what your customer really wants, and that’s how I approach my stories too—by understanding what people are following. It’s not because I’m brilliant or smart or whatever. No, actually, all of this stuff came from you guys. And being able to give back to them is also very rewarding.” - Kristie Neo, Venture Capital and Startup Journalist


“And you know how it is in VCs and startups, right? A lot of the startups in our region operate in highly informal sectors, so it’s actually really easy to fudge the numbers or misreport the accounting. In the last few years, especially after the correction, all these issues started coming out. True colors began to show, which, honestly, I think is a good thing. I realized it could be a lot more widespread than what we actually see on the surface. But I’m glad we managed to contribute, even a little, to pushing the ecosystem toward more integrity. It’s important that certain people be held accountable for their actions because, ultimately, we want what’s best for the ecosystem.” - Kristie Neo, Venture Capital and Startup Journalist


“As you keep persistently putting your name out there, people eventually start to recognize, "Okay, these people are serious." And today, you don’t even have to think about it—people immediately want us to be part of their launch or cover certain things. We’ve come a really long way, and it’s incredibly rewarding to build all of that and grow the company through building the brand.” - Kristie Neo, Venture Capital and Startup Journalist

1. Channel News Asia to DealStreetAsia VC Editor

Kristie began her journalism career at Channel News Asia (CNA), working in documentaries and later transitioning to business news. She emphasized CNA’s commitment to telling stories through an “Asian perspective,” which shaped her approach to reporting. Later, Kristie also joined DealStreetAsia (DSA) as a venture capital and startup reporter, contributing to its growth from a small team. She highlighted the challenges of establishing credibility as a startup newsroom, including building relationships with key stakeholders and securing access to major press events.

2. Investigative Journalism

Kristie spearheaded the use of Singapore’s ACRA database to access private company filings, uncovering financial insights that shaped investigative reporting at DealStreetAsia (DSA). Her work involved analyzing complex financial reports, connecting the dots between stakeholders, and leveraging this data to produce in-depth reports. Over time, these efforts evolved into Data Vantage, a proprietary tool offering comprehensive company data and insights across Southeast Asia, becoming a critical resource for DSA’s operations.

3. Unicorn Mismanagement (Revolution Precrafted)

Kristie led an exposé on Revolution Precrafted, a Philippine unicorn valued at over $1 billion, revealing fraudulent activities. Through on-ground investigations in Manila, she uncovered unfulfilled development projects and inconsistencies in financial operations. Her findings triggered a national government investigation, highlighting the risks of informal structures in Southeast Asia’s startups and emphasizing the importance of accountability and transparency in the ecosystem.

Jeremy and Kristie also discussed ethical challenges in journalism, declining media trust, technology's impact on storytelling, and Southeast Asia’s cultural nuances in startup reporting.


(01:02) Jeremy Au: Hey, Kristie, really excited to have you on the show.

(01:05) Kristie: Thank you for having me.

(01:06) Jeremy Au: Yeah I've always been a big fan of your newsroom at NewsTree Asia. And

obviously I've seen you at many of the same conferences I think it's the same panel on different panels and so forth. Time for the newsmaker to be interviewed.

(01:20) Kristie: Which is, happen very often. I'm usually like over there where you are.

it's very rare for me to be interviewed. I do get a bit nervous sometimes, but I think this time it's okay.

(01:29) Jeremy Au: I can imagine someone's

Yes,

finally, she gets a revenge, she put me in so many tough spots. Then Jeremy's just going to really

I don't know.

(01:36) Kristie: Rip her apart.

Rip her apart with these

(01:38) Jeremy Au: softball

questions.

So it's the hardest question here, Kristie, is tell me about yourself. Who are you?

(01:45) Kristie: Okay, so yeah, my name is Kristie. I'm a venture capital and startup reporter and journalist. I've been in the media industry for about 14 years. I started off at CNA, Channel News Asia. So the Singaporeans would know it to (02:00) be like the main broadcaster. In Singapore started off in documentaries, moved on to business news.

But I think I was probably more well known for my time at DealStreetAsia, which is also the longest stint I was in my media career where I spent nearly six years doing venture capital and startup. And yeah, during those six years, it was actually one of the most rewarding times that I've ever had.

Just left last year and basically moved to Dubai, which is where I'm based out of now. And came back to Singapore for a short break to join your podcast.

(02:31) Jeremy Au: Very kind of you. And what's interesting is that you were at National University of Singapore.

Obviously, so many startup founders and tech people came out of NUS, but did you know you're going to be a journalist or what were you thinking? What

(02:44) Kristie: It's funny you mentioned that because actually back then when I was studying in NUS, I don't think many people even had the idea of doing a startup. The idea of a startup wasn't even, front of people's minds. Most of my colleagues, even those that I knew who went to engineering, it wasn't really culturally, it wasn't something (03:00) that people aspired to do.

I think that only came about maybe a couple years after I graduated, I would say, when people started to pay attention to Grab and Goja. They were like the up and coming companies. And then the rise of some of these SUTD universities, the newer universities that kind of pushed a more kind of hybrid.

Education curriculum, where, you know, the idea of doing something new and innovative and, building something from scratch became something that was a bit more aspirational for students. But I came from the arts and social science faculty, so I studied political science. Didn't actually want to be a journalist.

I stumbled into the profession. Because I guess maybe being Singaporean and, growing up in this kind of environment, where, you don't really have, the media outlets that we were, we grew up on were maybe, mainstream broadcasters, state broadcasters. So I guess there was always a certain level of cynicism around.

Graduated from school, sent my application to CNA because I didn't know what I was going to do, got a response and got the job. So (04:00) yeah turned out to be actually also really fun. I think. It was a really good training ground, I would say because being the main broadcaster in Singapore, you do have really wide exposure to, lots of different types of stories and really good talent in a TV station.

But yeah, it was really fun. I really enjoyed myself.

(04:17) Jeremy Au: I think it's been fantastic to see actually, even these, state broadcasters actually Bring up or level up their game over time as well. Like going through the experience.

Obviously you took the job, but what did you like about the experience at Channel News Asia? What did you learn?

(04:30) Kristie: I think one thing that I really took away from the whole experience, so I was there for nearly four years. And it's something that I still carry with me today. We used to have this tagline in CNA called telling the Asian perspective.

I don't know if you recall that. I don't hear it so much anymore, but it's something that we used to have that motto for quite a long time. And it's something that really resonated with me. It still continues to resonate with me because in CNA, we had correspondence across all of the (05:00) major

APAC cities, and I think a lot of what made us stand out. vis a vis all of the other TV broadcasters was that we were telling the Asian narrative From

Asia through Asia lens,

Which I felt, we were occupying a gap in the market that no one else was able to occupy. Of course you have Nikkei, NHK, which I think they're also doing a fabulous job at what they do.

I think all of us have our part, in being able to tell those types of stories. There are just a handful of us in Asia that, were really, really out there telling those stories. And I think It's something that I still believe in even now.

I remember when I was looking for a job before I joined DSA, there was something that I actually was very intentional as well and telling myself, okay, what do I want to look in my next job? I knew I wanted to be in Singapore. I knew I wanted to do finance.

I knew I wanted to be in Asian publication. And it's something that I think, we need more. Journalists, more producers, more (06:00) storytellers, more documentarists really telling our stories. Because I think Asia has so much to give to the world. But if we don't tell them, then we can't be letting anyone else tell a story.

(06:11) Jeremy Au: BBC, it's

like, have you heard of the world's stinkiest fruit? The durian, you know, yeah, no, it's really

(06:20) Kristie: and I think CNA has come a really long way. Of course, they still get, a certain amount of criticism from time to time.

Especially when it comes to Singapore politics, those types of topics tend to be a little bit How do you say? Controlled. A lot of people tend to ask me Oh, is there censorship in CNA? I'm like yeah,

there

is censorship.

On certain types of topics that tend to be, politically sensitive to the government, which is civil government.

But by and large, like I mentioned, the fact that you don't have many media outlets be able to occupy this kind of narrative to me still means that (07:00) there's a special place in the market

for it.

And that's something they have honed really well and they've done really well in But yeah when I joined CNA, because my background was in political science, I very quickly realized like, oh crap, I can't be writing political stories.

And actually that was how I

Moved into business reporting and learned about business. So actually I have no like financial business background which, I think surprises a lot of people because along the way, especially when I was in DSA, you really have to trawl through a lot of financial reports and you got to learn accounting, so a lot of it actually was stuff that I learned on my own.

Of course you had editors to guide you. But it was, yeah, a lot of it was just like on the job kind of training and just fell in love with like finance and business and I realized, wow, like money really touches every aspect of our life. But also I think more importantly the essence of like power like with money comes power as well and Politics is the study of power and I realized wow, it's all (08:00) interlinked and yeah, I fell in love with it.

I just never left

(08:04) Jeremy Au: And, tell me about your journey because you started from the Chinese Association and you went through, but could you provide a quick outline of how you eventually Got to this

(08:12) Kristie: Okay. So after CNA I spent about four years there and then I moved to a content agency called We Are Social. So I was actually a content strategist there for about two and a half years. It was actually the longest two and a half years of my life, I would say. But why I moved there also is because when I was at CNA, I realized, oh crap, like TV is dying, you know?

Viewership numbers are going down, and that was really the time when social media platforms, Facebook and all these social media Twitter back then, was gaining a lot of ground, and there was a huge push towards more kind of digital storytelling, which I felt that the main broadcasters were not able to really capture, so I was like, okay, I need to put myself in an environment that was exploring (09:00) stories from a more kind of digital lens.

So when I joined We Are Social, it was quite different from, it wasn't editorial, it wasn't news, but it was actually more like digital advertising. So we would be producing stories on digital and social media creating strategies for them for brands. So some of the brands that I used to work with was like Intel 20th century Fox.

And it was also very interesting because it was around the time when I joined social that the Cambridge Analytica

(09:30) Jeremy Au: Oh, yeah

(09:31) Kristie: It's insightful because I came from a media background and then moved into advertising, which a lot to a lot of people was like, Oh, you're crossing over to the dark side.

And then this Cambridge Analytica thing blew up, which created such an uproar and all the journalists were almost offended by what was happening. The fact that Trump was taking advantage of, the metrics and all of that, which is funny because when I moved into, we are social.

You really get an insight peek of how brands have been (10:00) basically buying, they've been manipulating buying ads for their brands, for their products for years and years. This is a strategy that has been done a really long time, But it almost seemed as if the media people didn't know that something like that could happen.

And the way that it blew up, obviously, it involved, government, leadership of the country and all of that, but it was interesting to see it from, a media person moving into the ad agency side and seeing it from that lens and realizing wow this is a different world, yeah. And if you fast forward from there till now, I think the media landscape has just You know, we've seen media outlets just continuously become outpaced by technology by social media, by hits and headlines and this polarization of views and censorship versus non censorship we've really gone to a very different era now.

(10:59) Jeremy Au: (11:00) will see all that happened and you still chose to be part of the Street Asia when it was a very young team.

so how did you get yourself to the point where Hey, this is a good idea for me to do.

(11:11) Kristie: Yeah. So after we moved to CNBC for a short bit realized like I wasn't really seeing a lot of focus on Asian storytelling, which

is what I

mentioned before, that was actually one of the reasons why I left and then joined deal street Asia. I just needed a job, really.

It really was

the truth.

But like I mentioned I had three bullet points I wanted to check off. And DSA was the only one that checked all three. I didn't want to go back to CNA. I know I could, but I didn't want to. I wanted a new experience. And yeah, Georgie just really quickly took me in and there was a, vacancy for a Singapore reporter.

And I joined, I got it and I guess the rest is kind of

history. Wow. I think we were like 12 to 15.

(11:57) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So there's a really small a lot of

(11:59) Kristie: (12:00) ground

in terms of coverage. Yeah. It was a really small team.

(12:02) Jeremy Au: Small now.

(12:03) Kristie: Like even today, I think there are just about 30 people,

which I think for a lot of people, it comes as a bit of a surprise because of the impact that we have on our geographies.

But yeah, it still remains a really small team. But when I joined actually was what? You know in startups you have like the zero to one and then the one to ten So I would say I joined at a one to

ten kind of period so DSA had already been around for a couple of years But when I joined it was actually a time Right around the time when Nikkei acquired us.

So I was there just right before the acquisition and then after. So of course when the Nikkei acquisition came about, obviously there was a bit of support, branding, funding. We were able to accelerate on a lot of things. When I joined, it was also the time where we just applied the paywall. I believe I am the first reporter to start reporting on Acra, which for those who don't know, is actually the kind of private company database for Singapore companies. And back then, none of the journalists were paying (13:00) attention to it. It's funny that now it's becoming a bit of a big thing.

, they're talking now in the media, right? Oh, the IC numbers are available to okra. When I got into okra, I remember feeling really oh, wow. His IC number is this. This is where he lives. It's quite surprising. Like a lot of information is actually very readily available if you just pay a small fee.

But I used to dig into those filings. And I don't know if you've

used Accra before. It's, UX is terrible.

(13:25) Kristie: But eventually when we started, using that as a resource for us to build.

On some of our investigative reporting that eventually turned into a whole revenue stream for us fast forward a few years today. That's data vantage So data vantage is basically a software where you can go in and have access to most of the company data not just in singapore but in southeast asia because most of the southeast asian companies are also domiciled here And on top of that we are able to generate reports and insights on sectors and all of that stuff.

So yeah, it was really rewarding to be part of that whole growth like the one to ten,

as I mentioned where, just one (14:00) small, action and a series of repeated actions could eventually lead to something much bigger. And yeah I would say two things were unique about DSA.

Like one was the ability to do investigative reporting, having the kind of support to do the kind of investigative reporting. But two is, as I alluded to, is being able to be in a newsroom startup. Like most of the newsrooms today are really large newsrooms and a lot of journalists can hide behind a brand, you know Where if you say you come from XYZ company, everyone knows about it You get invited to all the media launches when I first joined DSA some of them knew about us, but we would still be left out of a lot of Media releases, media events, every time didn't invite us to any of these Google reports, we were like, ah,

(14:46) Kristie: so angry,

Or like some investor or some company didn't invite us. They were like, why did you invite BT? Why did you invite Bloomberg? You gotta invite us. Took us a really long time. To build that credibility. (15:00) So it's like a startup in that sense when you're ground zero, like nobody knows about

you

as you keep, persistently getting out there, putting your name out there, eventually people come to know okay, these people are serious, and then today, you don't even have to think about it. people will immediately want us to be part of their launch or, want us to cover certain things. So I think we've come a really long way and I think it's very rewarding to be able to build all

of that, and grow with the company that way in terms of

building the

brand.

(15:28) Jeremy Au: So what do you think is the impact of Deuce Tree Asia?

(15:31) Kristie: trick question.No,

(15:33) Jeremy Au: when

(15:33) Kristie: yousay the impact.because okay, How did people,

(15:36) Jeremy Au: how do

(15:37) Kristie: perceive Jewish? I should beasking you that

(15:39) Jeremy Au: should be asking you

(15:41) Kristie: I've definitely

heard from people

complaining about

(15:43) Jeremy Au: Deux

(15:44) Kristie: Yeah, they complain because we can be pretty aggressive, I would say and especially During the years that was 2018 to 2024 We were doing a lot of investigative workas well.

(15:58) Kristie: Yeah, I would say we were quite persistent.(16:00)

We wouldn't take no for an answer

and yeah, I guess we're willing to write about things that maybe a lot of Investors or people in the ecosystem are not so

happy to see published, yeah, I guess that's what we are really known for. But you can tell me because, you were on the other end.

(16:19) Jeremy Au: I'm happy to be that

counterpart foil for you. I think it was interesting is that like you said, people, you were breaking news. the most obvious one would be. analysis of current affairs. you're also breaking news early. So maybe a fun announcement, but often before the official press release and everything. Cause people used to take one month to announce stuff And then you would announce stuff. one or two days after it cameout So people got

(16:44) Kristie: irritated by you

(16:46) Jeremy Au: Because you're like,

(16:46) Kristie: was to

(16:47) Jeremy Au: media strategy

(16:49) Kristie: then

(16:49) Jeremy Au: then you break the news because of theAccra filing which is a fun formationor an announcement or fundraise and then also you did investigative journalism about, Fraud or

(17:00) Allegations or disputes, which obviously is embarrassing for the founders involved. It's embarrassing for the startup investors or board involved. Obviously, the state broadcasters are not covering the tech beat.

So there's not much visibility on, I think, tech in Asia. It was a little bit more focused on what their bread and butter

(17:18) Kristie: was, but less on the investigative journalism at that time. I think they have done their share of investigative journalism too.

The Octopus. Yes. And the kind of University credentials. Credentials, right? Yeah. And I think it's great that they've been doing a lot of that too.

(17:33) Jeremy Au: I think they've definitely done a lot now. Today they're doing a lot. I'm just saying that I think New Street Asia felt, as a consumer, first with that kind of an angle, and

(17:41) Kristie: like forwarding it to each other, and clicking on it.

(17:43) Jeremy Au: It

(17:44) Kristie: paywall.

Yeah, and they get really frustrated.

WhatsApp groups, like, "Does someone have a duty-free ask too?" They'll call me, and they'll be like, "Kristie, we need the story, but it's behind the paywall," and I'm like, "No, you've got to buy a subscription."

(17:54) Jeremy Au: To read their stuff because, like, investigative journalism. But nobody (18:00) wanted to be the subject.

Investigative journalism. So what was that experience like? Because you're the editor. Obviously, it must be getting, like, pressure, or pushback, or feedback from the

(18:11) Kristie: Yeah, actually, Georgie got a lot more heat than me. Of course, I would get my own heat. 'Cause as a reporter, you're like on the front line.

(18:18) Kristie: I think a lot of it is really kudos to Georgie's vision, right? I didn't really do that much investigative reporting prior to DSA.

And if you actually look at Georgie's—Georgie is my founder of DealStreetAsia. He's very well-known in India. He was from E.T. and Mint. The Indian landscape clearly is very different from Singapore, where, in Singapore, you fall in line. So he's handled these kinds of stories before. He understands the complexities. The important thing is really, like, nuance. Especially when you start doing more difficult stories. And I guess, especially for me, like, the learning also is the more stories that you do, the more (19:00) complicated it becomes, the more nuanced you really need to be.

And I think that's something that I, when I read, I would love to hear your thoughts about this as well. Most of the reporting today in mainstream media, it really lacks a lot of nuance. We really need nuance to really understand a subject matter really well. And if, when it comes to something that is very scandalous, or involvement of corruption or misreporting and all that, you really need to explore every single angle, every single little cranny and hole, to ensure that you try to put forth the most objective story that you can produce in a way that is also empathetic to all sides.

I would never say, and the truth of a lot of these stories is that It's never just like one winner and one loser one was right and the other was wrong It's never this and this that's not (20:00) true for anything in life, and in storytelling you have to be able to piece all of that together instead of just painting everything in one broad brush and say ah, this guy, in most cases it usually involves a whole host of people.

It's not just one person. But unfortunately, sometimes in our media landscape today, it's very easy. to pin the blame on one character or one personality or one profile because he has these characteristics. you have all these types of personalities, especially in the VC startup landscape, right? And I think really approaching it from that kind of lens and with a certain level of

Empathy is something that takes a lot of practice. In fact, I feel like my admiration for people in the VC startup ecosystem has only grown more and more as I do a lot more of these stories because people don't realize the amount of risk and difficulty and challenges.

It's also a very lonely journey for a lot of these founders.

(20:58) Kristie: When things go to (21:00) shit, you do not want to be seen. Some of these stories that have gone out are about founders who, you know...

(21:06) Kristie: Unfortunately, maybe you didn't make the right moves and the right decisions. And if the story goes out, you're not going to find a job. You're going to leave the country. It's terrible. It's really awful. I don't know how they're going to find a way back again, right? And yet, you still want these stories, these failures to happen.

Because...

(21:26) Kristie: You can't win all the time. It's just not—it's not reality.

And what's interesting is that...

(21:33) Jeremy Au: What does that look like from the agency?

What does an investigative journalist do? Like, you wake up in the morning and you're like,

(21:39) Kristie: You're wearing your spyglasses—spy glasses.

No. And you're looking through the window.

No. That's not how it works. Actually, I just spend a lot of time talking to people. I spend the majority of my time just talking to people and meeting. That's it.

(21:53) Kristie: Especially when you're working in subscription media, you really need to deliver stories that are of value to your users because they are (22:00) paying for your stories. You really need to spend time with people in the industry. The only way that you can produce something that is valuable is if you know exactly what concerns them, what are they worried about, what are they following, what are they intrigued by—all these things.

So understanding your reader audience really well, that's actually where I get all my stories from. And in that sense, I think in business, I guess there's some similarity to that, right? You've got to understand what it is that your customer really wants. And that's actually how I approach my stories as well, you know, by really understanding what people are following. So it's not because I'm brilliant or smart or whatever.

No, actually, all of this stuff came from you guys, you know, so—and to be able to give back to them, it's also very rewarding. At least it was for me.

(22:49) Jeremy Au: What are some myths or misconceptions about being an investigative journalist?

(22:56) Kristie: What are misconceptions? You're an...

(22:58) Jeremy Au: Evil person who (23:00) delights in...

You're a scary person because anything you talk to her about will be quoted.

Ah yeah, I think that happens. People tend to be, like, a bit afraid to speak to me now. Yeah. I guess it depends. It really depends. I've been able to foster a much closer relationship.

(23:19) Kristie: They know and they can trust that I'm not going to be quoting something out of context. It's only when you quote out of context or you sit in a different way—and obviously, if I interview you and then that happened to you, this girl doesn't understand what she's doing.So that's usually how it happens, right? So..

(23:39) Jeremy Au: It's really important to build that relationship. Of course, if the person has never interacted with me before, usually that happens for like the first one or two chats. Then usually the person will be...

(23:51) Kristie: Like, "Off record, I'm not gay."

(23:52) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(23:53) Kristie: Which is okay. I expect that, and it's fine. It's totally fine.

Yeah, I definitely shouldn't be like (24:00) shoving the microphone in everybody's face. It's not really, at least, my style. I know there are some journalists who do that, but I don't do that.

(24:08) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I guess that makes total sense. I guess the misconception of investigative journalism would be like...

(24:13) Kristie: Someone who's putting their ear next to the wall to listen.

(24:16) Jeremy Au: Listening to everything.

(24:18) Kristie: Like Big Brother.

(24:19) Jeremy Au: I mean, you're using Accra before everybody else was, so you are digging...

(24:24) Kristie: We are digging through the files. There's a lot of evolution...

(24:31) Jeremy Au: Of information on Accra. That's a lot. Yeah, it's a shocking amount. It's a shocking amount. That's the thing.

Like, which is quite different from the U.S. system.

(24:38) Kristie: Yeah, in most countries, I feel like—I think only in Singapore, as far as I know, that there's something that's that transparent. But it definitely gave me an insight into, "Oh, so this is how the cap table could look like."

(24:51) Jeremy Au: So you just...

(24:51) Kristie: You're like, "Oh, okay, so this person owns this much. Oh, this father co-invested with the son in this thing."

Oh, so you start to...

(25:00) Connect the dots that way, which is fun.

(25:02) Jeremy Au: Investors do a little bit..

(25:03) Kristie: That too.

(25:04) Jeremy Au: Yeah. You do the legwork for us.

(25:06) Kristie: It's...

(25:06) Jeremy Au: And then it's not our math; it's your math.

But yeah, I think we recently did the piece on E Fishery, the Series D. out, and then there was some calculation about how much they exited for and a rough estimate of how much the ROI was on that exit. So yeah, it's been interesting to see, I think, also the sophistication level go up for these articles as well.

So I guess when you look ahead, what do you think is the future for investigative journalism?

(25:33) Kristie: Wow. Maybe not investigative journalism. Maybe just like journalism as a whole. I think the media landscape is going through a really rough time now. Especially in the last one, two years, if you've been following the news, like a lot of media outlets have been, there's been more attrition of media outlets than

There have been media outlets getting created.

Which is really sad and dangerous if you think about it, right? Especially now when you have (26:00) a lot of these big tech giants becoming more and more prominent in some parts of the world. Like tech guys are collaborating with governments as well.

(26:09) Kristie: Which makes you wonder. And then, of course, you know, with the kind of prevalence of social media and the intrusiveness even of social media in our day-to-day lives, and the way that it informs the way that we view the world, it makes me wonder—yeah, I don't know how society is going to really evolve in the coming years.

Because if you don't have a certain level of independence, and mainstream ideas being able to kind of... Historically, when I was growing up, you saw the world in one way.

And then now it's just...

I guess the good side of it is that today we have a lot more access to different types of information. But unfortunately, I don't think everybody's able to take in all of that information and be able to...

(26:58) Jeremy Au: Be able...

(26:59) Kristie: (27:00) Digest it and be able to arrive at a very cogent conclusion of, "Okay, this is what I think about this issue and this issue."

(27:09) Jeremy Au: We just have no time.

(27:12) Kristie: I remember, actually, one of the biggest insights when I was at We Are Social, before I moved back into media to DSA, was that I realized that...

(27:22) Jeremy Au: The...

(27:23) Kristie: Biggest insight in when you're working in advertising and media—there are two very diametric opposites. They're called advertising or PR "the dark side," and editorial "the light," or whatever.

(27:36) Jeremy Au: Star Wars—good versus evil.

(27:37) Kristie: Oh yeah, this is very common, like, they talk about it all the time.

But I realized that both sides actually see the world in two very different ways. Journalists, because we are like ambassadors of the truth, they view the world as if all people are rational actors, that we are logical, that your readers are people who would look at all sides of the argument and be able to arrive at an objective truth (28:00) or objective reality, which is what the role of a journalist is supposed to do.

But in advertising, that truth is not an objective truth. It looks at people as having biases, prejudices, and motivations shaped by their past, behavior, background, where they grew up, and their socioeconomic status.

And that informs the kinds of stories that are highly compelling to the audience.

So it's a very different kind of way of approaching storytelling. And if you look at the way social media works today—why is it that certain stories have become more viral than others? I remember one of the things in We Are Social as well—I can't remember who it was, but they were sharing about how if you look at the data, just purely at metrics, like social media metrics—what are the kinds of stories that are the most viral? Porn?

(28:55) Jeremy Au: Babies? Cats and babies?

(28:58) Kristie: That says a lot.

(28:59) Jeremy Au: (29:00) Yeah.

(29:01) Kristie: If you're telling an objective story, you're going to get lots of likes. I'm like, "Yes, but this is what you're competing against," right?

Which is why I think the media, coming kind of full circle now, I think the media business model is really broken.

And it's very hard to fix because ultimately, it's a race to the bottom.and that's, I don't have any solutions, right? If I did obviously I'm pretty sure someone genius would have come up with something already, but the fact that we're seeing declining.

Readership subscriptions, and then eventual attrition of all these media outlets just goes to show that people are not willing to pay for quality content and yet at the same time, the amount of work that goes into the kind of investigative reporting that, we used to do at DSA is tremendous.

It's like hours and hours. I've worked for stories for like months. And some of

the stories are still not out yet, they're still in my folder, and it takes a really long time, a lot of investment but when the story

is out,

it's out, and (30:00) then after a while,

people move on to the next thing which is what I call the race to the bottom I think in the US, like people are still quite they're more willing to pay for subscription content, but in Asia, particularly, I don't think people are that willing

to pay for it.

But I don't know what you, do you subscribe to media much or like what you think about the media landscape these days as a consumer? yeah. I think, five years ago I wasn't consuming short form videos and today I am, for example, waiting for. A meeting that's been delayed, I pull up my phone and it's a bunch of shorts. And I'm like, yeah, I'll watch. Shorts. I used to listen to more, audio books and

(30:37) Jeremy Au: Then it became podcasts, and now it's video podcasts.

And then, I think YouTube—what used to be something I watched a lot of, I stopped watching a bit of it.

Now it's come back.

I think there's a lot of different dynamics, but then, of course, I'm working very hard.

Like, "Okay, I need to read my long-form books."

Yes, I took a holiday. I read three books, so it was just good to get back to reading.

But yeah, I think it's a very (31:00) difficult push and, the fact that I'm swimming hard against that push, just goes to show how much, everybody else is following that, current, switching, chapters here, could you share about, a time that you have been brave?

(31:15) Kristie: When I've been brave.

I guess maybe the story that I did for Revolution Precrafted was I would say it was quite a big story that we did and I would consider it to be probably the biggest story that I did when I was at DSA. What was then the Philippines first tech unicorn also backed by VCs.

So Unicorn is, a company that's valued above a billion dollars. It was a big deal at the time because, it was the first from the Philippines. And, everyone, I guess in the Southeast Asian ecosystem, you would treat the unicorn as a milestone, something that you want to reach, right?

It's indicative of where the ecosystem was. It was. founded by this very kind of charismatic, slightly wacky founder. I don't know if you've met him (32:00) before. Robbie Antonio, who was also the son of a proper tycoon in the Philippines. So he actually came from a rich family. The story was basically how we managed to we realized that.

It wasn't a unicorn. So it involved me flying to Manila. Revolution Pre Crafted is what the business was that they did prefabricated housing for the luxury segment. They did some properties in Manila, but they also did properties like overseas. And I guess the differentiating factor also was that Robbie Antonio is very,

It was in really close terms with a lot of these like celebrity architects from, overseas like Zaha Hadid and all these people and he would take their designs and then produce these properties like prefab, at a low cost so called.

So yeah, the story basically involved us taking,

yeah, We realized that the company was not a unicorn. So yeah, as I mentioned, it, involved me flying to Manila took pictures of some of (33:00) the sites where the development areas are meant to be, and they never delivered any of it. It became quite a national story. I think just because it was the Philippines first unicorn. And yeah, eventually led to a national investigation by the government on the company. yeah, that was

(33:17) Jeremy Au: Mm. So what's it like? Because obviously you're doing the research and I can see the work as in, you're doing that work, when you get And you hit publish, before you hit publish, do you like get scared or anxious? Like

(33:29) Kristie: yeah. Oh my gosh.

(33:30) Kristie: yeah, it took us a few months, I think. But the story really came together when I made the trip to Manila. And I remember when I was there, I spent a few days there and I didn't tell anyone that I was going because I didn't want anyone to know.

Only my family and the company knew that I was going. And remember, as any work trip, you want to arrange meetings on the side. The moment I touched down, I had one meeting with one of the Filipino founders. I wouldn't name who he was, but I told him Hey, I'm working on this story on revolution.

And he was like, Kristie, (34:00) do you know? That the highest brutality rate for journalists after Afghanistan is the Philippines Philippines is number two. I literally just landed. I was just like two hours landing and I'm like, Now this guy is telling me that I could be dead.

(34:13) Jeremy Au: is

(34:13) Kristie: And then, finally I managed to get, some Sources who were able to share some intel. Honestly. I think sometimes, like especially Hollywood, they tend to glamorize

(34:26) Jeremy Au: journalist

(34:27) Kristie: profession. Oh,

(34:28) Jeremy Au: yeah. Civil war, person is like, Oh yeah, the journalist is out there, like doing this investigative report. Very bulletproof a little camera.

(34:35) Kristie: And I'm like, the people who are the bravest, the journalists are not the bravest people. the bravest people are actually the people that we speak to. It's actually the sources that I spoke to.

Because, these people If they found out that they were talking to me, they be in such big shit. You have no idea. And these are people who are on

the ground,

I'm Singaporean, I can say goodbye Manila, I (35:00) come back to Singapore, no one's going to touch me, everything will be okay.

These people will probably be taken down by lawyers, who knows. In the Philippines, people can just disappear and no one will

know who these people are. Those are the real brave people, and I was really concerned about them.

Yeah, I was really, genuinely concerned about them. I came back and I was like, please God, please protect them. Because, I knew that Robbie Antonio was very litigious and I was warned that He was surrounded by an army of lawyers, if he gets angry you just don't know especially when you're dealing with characters where there's a lot at stake

And it's very public story

(35:37) Jeremy Au: dollars a stake.

(35:38) Kristie: Yeah so yeah,

I guess it was good that eventually when the story went out obviously the public was really angry about it because there were a lot of people who were deceived into buying these properties And then you realize oh crap like this guy has been taking all our money And who knows where the money went the money didn't go into building these houses these villas that we wanted to Save (36:00) up for a retirement home Some of them were actually doing that and yeah, got really public so much so that Yeah, it became a bit of an embarrassment for him.

yeah, last I heard he flew away to New York. I think he's still there now.

Yeah. Makes sense.

(36:16) Jeremy Au: and so I think it's interesting because, obviously when you break a story like that, obviously people are angry.

There's a lot of "I can't imagine people think this is true." It's incorrect; let's update it.

Accuracy, inaccuracy. Like you said, people have homes that have not been built, so they're frustrated.

How do you feel about that now, looking back on it? Do you think it's like a movie? Do you think it's very painful?

What is—what's your reflection now that you've...

(36:40) Kristie: Looking back on that? Yeah, looking back on it, I realized there are so many other companies that are also doing this. Like, wait, it’s just one company.

(36:49) Jeremy Au: Tip off the...

(36:50) Kristie: Exactly. You talk about, eventually, Zilingual came out. IFishery.

I did a couple of stories on One Championship. I did a (37:00) story on Spenmo, which is also quite a big one.

And this is just a few companies—there are lots of them that, yeah, I probably just never heard about and escaped me.

You know how it is in VCs and startups, right?

A lot of the startups in our region are in very highly informal sectors, so it's actually really easy to fudge the numbers or misreport the accounting.

And I think in the last few years, especially after the correction, all these started coming out.

So the true colors start coming out, which actually I think is a good thing.

I realized it could be a lot more widespread than what we actually see on the surface.

But I'm glad that we managed to contribute a little bit to that—I guess pushing the ecosystem towards a lot more integrity.

And it's important that certain people be held accountable for their actions (38:00) because ultimately, we want what's best for the ecosystem.

And the only way you can have a healthy ecosystem is that some of these stories be told.

I know I sound so idealistic, but...

(38:12) Jeremy Au: It's, you know, political science undergraduate sound just...

(38:15) Kristie: Came out. Oh my gosh. Truth to terrible, but...

(38:20) Jeremy Au: It's not.

(38:23) Jeremy Au: On that note, let's wrap things up.

But, so those are the three things that I learned from you.

First of all, thanks so much for sharing about your early journey—about how you accidentally fell into journalism and that early journey in terms of discovering whether you liked journalism and what you learned about it along the way.

Secondly, thanks for sharing about your time at Street Asia, talking about what it's like to have a paywall. I share description with folks, in order to be able to break stories that people may or may not want. to be out there, but it's just fascinating to hear that ground level view about what it's like to be in that newsroom, writing these articles. and lastly, thanks so much for sharing (39:00) about your own personal experience being an investigative journalist. that was just fascinating to hear about what it's like to be. searching for the truth and trying to say, This is true. This is not true. This is the nuance. This is the founder's perspective. This is the board's perspective. This is the customer's perspective. So really fascinating to hear all of that. So thank you so much for sharing your journey.

(39:19) Kristie: Thank you for having me.