Gita Sjahrir, Head of Investment at BNI Ventures, and Jeremy Au discussed:
1. 109 Member 48 Ministry Cabinet Coalition: With the inauguration on October 20, 2024, President Prabowo Subianto expanded the cabinet from 34 to 48 ministries, the largest since 1966. Prabowo's coalition-building strategy is to accommodate political allies and unify the seven-party coalition behind him. They drew comparisons to Germany’s coalition politics, emphasizing the importance of coordination between Indonesia’s national and regional leaders for effective governance.
2. Temu Ban, TikTok & Bukalapak: In early October 2024, Indonesia banned Chinese social commerce platform Temu, similar to TikTok Shop which then had to acquire Tokopedia. The Indonesian government also requested Apple and Google to block the Temu app to prevent local downloads. Other nations, including the United States and EU, are scrutinizing Chinese exporter practices, with the US tightening tax exemptions on low-cost imports in 2023. Gita explained that while such protectionism shields MSMEs, Indonesia’s core issues (e.g., complex bureaucracy, high business costs, lack of raw materials and a multi-year backlog for trademarks) remain unaddressed. She argued that easing these foundational barriers would create a fairer, more sustainable advantage for local businesses, rather than just temporary protection from foreign competition.
3. VC Investments: Indonesia has already attracted interest in green joint ventures (JVs), particularly with China. Jeremy highlighted MAKA Motors, founded by former GoJek CTO Raditya Wibowo, as a local player advancing EV production, while Gita mentioned Toba’s push for renewable energy. They underscored the cultural importance of home ownership, noting that many Indonesians aspire to own land despite its often low financial returns, which drives prop-tech startup Rukita. Rekosistem is also a key startup addressing waste management in Indonesia’s growing urban areas. They also discussed the pressures faced by Indonesia’s “sandwich generation,” who often support both aging parents and their own families, and how these dynamics shape housing affordability and socio-economic mobility.
Jeremy and Gita also talked about the film “Home Sweet Loan, which explores Indonesians’ struggle with housing affordability, the influx of green investments into EV battery production and the regulatory challenges surrounding the rise of online gambling among youth.
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(01:24) Jeremy Au:
Hey Gita, how are you?
(01:25) Gita Sjahrir:
I'm great. How are you doing?
(01:27) Jeremy Au:
Good. I just got back from walking the Dutch clipper. So like, the Dutch government sailed a recreation of a Dutch ship, wooden ship, and is here to talk about the how to build venture builder and venture studio. So by venture rock. so I was like, well, I, I'm all into here about venture building ecosystem on this Dutch ship. So, that was great.
(01:45) Gita Sjahrir:
Great.It's been exciting, fun times in Indonesia right now.
(01:49) Jeremy Au:
Yeah. What's what's so fun about Indonesia right now?
(01:51) Gita Sjahrir:
Well, we've got inauguration in a week. So inauguration is on the 20th of October and it's a very buzzy time right now because there's talks about who might be in the cabinet and who might not be. And basically it's all speculation which was fueled because yesterday and today several people, that people are thinking could be in the cabinet have been, Called by Mr. Prabowo to come to his, house. And by the way, no one knows really what they're saying in the house, but as always, there's always the media and Indonesian netizens to wonder, are these our next ministers? There you go.
(02:29) Jeremy Au:
It's like The Apprentice, I guess. It's like people get summoned, they have an interview, but why not? I mean, you gotta, you gotta meet them eventually. So you can't, you're not gonna pick your minister by Zoom.
(02:38) Gita Sjahrir:
Right.
(02:39) Jeremy Au:
So you gotta, you gotta meet them somewhere.
(02:41) Gita Sjahrir:
And so people have been looking at, Oh, this guy went in. Oh, this person went in. And our current Minister of Finance, who a lot of people love, and I love her too. She just got called in. So everyone's speculating going, "Oh my gosh, are they going to be the next ministers?" And, there's also been talks about this position because this time around, the ministerial positions have been expanded. So there might be, either 44 or 45 ministers coming up, for many reasons, whether or not they're justified to be expanded that much. We actually don't know. They might be, because our world is becoming more complex and certain ministerial positions, probably need to be separated in order to make the work more focused.
So that's been what people have been gossiping a lot of as we wonder who's going to be the upcoming ministers.
(03:32) Jeremy Au:
Yeah. I mean, I think the other angle that I've been reading about why the cabinet has been expanded from an external perspective is that it's also part of the coalition building, part of the horse trading, that's part about the fact that Prabowo has probably been the only person who has been able to get more seats over time, which is quite shocking from his initial victory.
Now he's gotten like a effectively a super majority. so it's been quite extraordinary to see that happen, but obviously part of it, like you said, has been about the expansion of the total number of ministries from 34 to over 40. I mean, seven parties in the coalition, some of them were with him from beginning, some of them joined afterwards. So I think everybody needs to be part of that coalition, right? I mean, it's kind of similar to Germany. I mean, Germany has three parties as part of that coalition. They themselves also had to separate the ministries across those three political parties as well.
(04:18) Gita Sjahrir:
I think this is also the part where Indonesian politics, probably mirror a lot like other emerging countries in terms of the way we do our public sector, because Indonesia is still so new as an electoral democracy, and there are so many changes in the laws, who becomes minister becomes a minister more important than let's say a developed nation where some of the systems are so in place that it's almost like whoever becomes the leader can only push it up to a certain extent. They probably can't change it so 180.
Whereas in emerging markets like indonesia, whoever becomes the minister or whoever takes over that position of power may have a lot more pull and a lot more ability to shape policies moving forward. And I think that's why Sometimes when I talk to my friends who come from developed nations, they don't understand this mass obsession of finding out, Hey, who is our next leader? Who is the new minister? Who is the new, et cetera, et cetera. Because in their systems, it's just so set. So it's not really who, it's more about, Oh, which parties are, the most powerful? Which parties have the most seats? Whereas with us, a lot of it can be balanced out and can be shaped as it goes along simply because we're so new at a lot of things.
And so I think this is the part why politics in Indonesia can actually be pretty exciting slash frustrating to follow.
(05:43) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. I mean, I think expanding the number of ministers is pretty common in Southeast Asia. I do remember that, when Anwar Ibrahim became prime minister recently in Malaysia, he also expanded the number of ministries from, I believe 28 to 31 ministries. Obviously, I think from his perspective as well, I think he framed it up as two sides. One side, of course, was making sure that there's enough people to be part of the team to handle the various dynamics and portfolios. But of course, we also know that Anwar Ibrahim also has to, kind of like balance the, unity government that he has, because he has the Democratic Action Party, as well as the United Malay National Organization, UMNO. And of course he has his own party as well. So making sure that everybody's like adequately represented from their perspective. So, I think it's pretty common. I don't think it's a massive, I mean, it's not like making a hundred ministries right now.
(06:33) Gita Sjahrir:
That's true, which we will start questioning that.
(06:36) Jeremy Au:
Yeah. So I think, we'll see how it works out. Yeah.
(06:38) Gita Sjahrir:
But yes, that's really what we're all thinking about, what we've been gossiping about. And also what we've just been discussing about in public, is about the upcoming inauguration. And I think in general, people are pretty hopeful. Of course, as always, we're wary. I think Indonesians in general, tend to be more wary of where things can go, simply because in our history, we don't necessarily have always 100% smooth governance all the time. So that's why it's a healthy dose of just being careful too.
(07:10) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think that's quite interesting and it will be interesting to see how the incorporation works out. I think that, what's interesting as well is that recently Indonesia has banned Temu, which is operated by Pinduoduo. So I think the current policy rationale is to protect its local micro, small, medium enterprises, similar to its earlier ban of TikTok Shop. And also what's interesting is that the Indonesian government has also requested that Apple and Google block the app as well to prevent it from being downloaded in the country. So yeah, well, what do you think?
(07:36) Gita Sjahrir:
Okay, so it was banned very recently, early October. A lot of it is under the argument that it might destroy local MSMEs, and not saying that it cannot, it probably can but again, I think when it comes to a lot of indonesian policies, they come from a very protectionist standpoint. So very insular and always thinking about hey, will this immediately be a problem for the local players? Rather than looking from a different perspective of asking hey actually, what are the local players really asking for? What are the roots of the problem? And the roots of the problem for places like Indonesia, where again, still a very young country, since 1998 in terms of electoral democracy, there are questions about how pro business is the environment. How pro private sector is it? How easy is it to open a business? How easy is it to open a bank account if you're a business in the country? And like, how easy is it to access raw materials? And those are the questions that until today, a lot of the public policies are not answering completely, right?
There's still a lot of pushback. And so, some of the easier ways to deal with this question is to simply just get rid of foreign competition, or get rid of other, things, especially if they come from external players, to just get rid of that rather than really answer the root of the problems. So I think the problem isn't necessarily just Temu, it can be any other player coming in. And by the way, not saying that the way Temu price anything may not have a detrimental effect on MSMEs. And also not saying that Temu is playing in a field where they're very ethical, very no, I'm not saying that at all. I think Temu has its challenges for sure. But again, the question is not just about what happens when external players come in, but we really need to think what are our internal players really asking for?
(09:32) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think that what's interesting is that other regulators around the world are also taking action against Temu, right? So, for example, we recently saw that the Biden USA administration, there used to be something called de minimis exemption to the tariffs. So basically if goods are below $800, they would not be taxed at the border. And, our other co-host, Jianggan Li at Momentum Works and us discussed it and said, like, actually there's some research papers that this was actually a net welfare benefit to poor people. in the US by billions of dollars. But of course, the Biden administration has closed off that loophole so that Temu is no longer going to be able to ship directly under that price point, to people in America.
So, it's a net, obviously, transfer of wealth, I guess, from poor people to government tariffs. which goes to government revenue instead. but of course, that's not the only other people who are taking action against Temu.
(10:19) Gita Sjahrir:
Of course. And again, not saying that Temu is this completely 100%, all positive, all good player. Absolutely not. I think also the question of Temu will bring into mind. Yeah, how are things systematically? Like structurally when we look at a good, right? How did that thing become only 10 cents?
Like I think these are the questions that players like Temu are bringing up and it should make us question also, how are we, not just protecting our domestic players, but also domestic labor and all of the other components that make up for all these other players like Temu coming up in the world. I think it's not as simple as if you ban Temu, Indonesian domestic players will be protected. But again, the question should be actually, What else are the domestic players asking? What else are our private sector looking for? And we're not talking about the large conglomerates only, we're talking about MSMEs. What are they asking for? How have we made lives easier for them? For example, how easy is it to have trademark in Indonesia? Well, it's actually very hard because the trademark office is very much backlogged with a lot of requests, and there's simply not enough people working in there to, approve of things. So, you file a trademark, but it can take you a long time to get it, confirmed, and a lot of these things become problematic over time.
So I think, like, again, when we're looking at ease of doing business. Yes, there is an external component where we have to think about, like, how do we deal with those foreign players? But actually, how have we created policies in our own country that will allow private sector to thrive as much as they can?
(11:56) Gita Sjahrir:
And this is kind of like a topic that's very near and dear to my heart, because not everybody can also, join a very typical corporate ladder, especially in domestic markets like Indonesia, where a lot of people have side hustles because they're trying to increase like their income so that their income is not just the average GDP per capita of $5,000 per year.
So I always want to see how are we making entrepreneurship and people's Just willingness and people's like, desire to have a better life for themselves. How do we make this a reality for them? And this goes all the way down, right? This goes all the way to like, how are we building our education system? How are we building our business policies? How are we building people's ability to achieve financial things like that?
(12:41) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense and I think it's not an easy answer. I mean, I think all kinds of countries around the world are also taking action against Temu, for example, the EU is looking at it. South Korea is also looking at Temu as well. And I think it's interesting because at the end of the day, it's a who's benefiting and who's losing, right? so I think obviously in the US, we talked about is like this, exemption for these small imports basically was a 12 billion subsidy to poor American consumers who get to buy cheap stuff, right? because like you say, you buy something for 10 cents or $1, that's great, right? Compared to buy something more expensive. So you're being subsidized. on one end. But of course, on the other end, of course, in China, there are people who are protesting against Temu, right? So all the merchants are saying like, Hey, we're getting squeezed to death because Temu is like, you know, if there's a bad customer review, Temu will kind of penalize the merchants and stuff like that.
So, Temu is doing a great job as a middleman squeezing, the merchants to give those extraordinary low prices, but like I said, it's hard for a local person in South Korea or Indonesia to compete from a merchant perspective, right? So, it's just not an easy, debate at all. Well, of course, I think what's interesting is that what we saw was that for TikTok shop, that was actually the same debate that happened, and then TikTok shop acquired Tokopedia. And more recently, we do know that they were eyeing Bukalapak during that process because they were also facing regulatory action. They looked at Bukalapak as well as a target to come in as well. So I think the DealStreet Asia and Tech in Asia both reported that Bukalapak shares rallied 25%, in speculation that potentially Temu might partner or acquire Bukalapak.. Bukalapak managementt says that they are not aware of any current acquisition plans, but who knows? So let's see how that turns out.
(14:19) Gita Sjahrir:
These are also all speculations, but I think one of the things that I hope the Temu discussion brings up is really the question of how do things end up being 10 cents, right? So questions about actually, what is going on with this supply chain? Like, what ethical questions should we bring up? once we know that things can be 10 cents, and I think that is one of the things that can very politically debated, should there even be an acquisition of an Indonesian company by Temu, for example, because then the question is, okay, well, let's say they acquire a local competition, then, actually, how are you going to deal with pricing? What does market pricing mean then? What type of negative externalities will we have to deal with, with this type of player? even if that type of player has an Indonesian external facing view. it's still the same problem. It's still a question of the supply chain. It's still a question of what kind of game is this going to bring up?
(15:17) Jeremy Au:
How has the Tokopedia, TikTok shop merger slash acquisition been going on from your perspective, Gita?
(15:23) Gita Sjahrir:
Yeah, about that. Look, it is happening. It already happened. It is operating now as is, of course, Tiktok has very powerful algorithm, for consumers. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I've been on the end myself where I would go through a TikTok for you page and then go, Oh, strange. I have been looking for that exact thing. And I think that's a lot of the issue, right? With so many of these, basically social commerce plays, which is again, you're going into countries that are still developing countries with kind of, not, developed nation level GDP per capita. Yet these are also individuals who are starting to get more income to, or they have access to credit, which is its own problem with the rise of P2P loans.
(16:09) Gita Sjahrir:
I think a lot of it is back to what regulators, think would be a net benefit for the country, and that's a discussion that can be very convoluted, very complex, but in the end, hate to say it, some things and some innovation, whether or not they're good or bad, we kind of only find out later on. We only kind of find out like five years later or 10 years later. And I think with the rise of social commerce, I really hope that one of the things that Indonesia can do is also work on creating awareness of financial topics for people. This is one of those things that I've talked a lot about too on my own personal social media, but really with a rising income, it's very important that the mass also have rising financial knowledge and personal finance awareness.
(16:55) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think it's interesting because, to recap, it was like, TikTok was pushed in 2.3 billion investment to own 75% Tokopedia. and then since then, I think he conducted a layoff about a few months ago of 450 jobs, but I didn't know it was expected. I mean, every acquisition, there are going to be layoffs afterwards. and then, I think the goal is to make it profitable as a combined entity. So I think, I think shop B and Sea group has been sweating a bit. I think they recently announced the alliance of YouTube to fight against TikTok shop and Tokopedia. So I think everybody's trying to get a new, I don't know, video streaming platform.
(17:29) Gita Sjahrir:
This also says a lot about how young our population is. So I think it's going to be very similar to let's say like African continent where there's a lot of young people. For Indonesia, 50% are under the age of 40 or I think 35. So it's a lot of people. And so this is what happens when there's a lot of young people, in a way rising income for some. Not discounting the previous report of the disappearing middle class, but the fact is with the rise of new investments coming in, especially with the new presidency who seems very interested in getting more international investments, international businesses, you're just going to have a rising amount of younger people with disposable income.
And how will that work out in the longterm? So, I think that's what all this social commerce is really showing.
So it's places like Indonesia, not only do you have the rise of social commerce, you also have the rise of P2P loans and you have the rise of online gambling. So these three are actually very big in Indonesia right now. And even when you're thinking about online gambling, there's been a lot of talks for the public sector to shut it down, which they have from time to time. But again, there's also VPN. There's also all these other ways to circumvent. And I think this is what makes young developing markets also very challenging to govern.
(18:47) Jeremy Au:
Yeah. I think those are all the hopes and dreams that we hope for the inauguration and things will get better over time.
(18:53) Gita Sjahrir:
Yes.
(18:54) Jeremy Au:
When you look at the, say next year, so 2025, what do you think, some, I don't know, predictions that you have?
(19:00) Gita Sjahrir:
Oh boy. Well, I really do hope, it can turn out for the better because, our upcoming president is very much interested in receiving more, foreign investments, foreign businesses, and also, knowledge transfer. So there's a lot of talk also about dealing with stunting.
That was actually one of the campaign promises about the free lunch, which of course now is also becoming very challenging because of how expensive it'll get.
And again, as we talked about in a previous episode. This free lunch, this nutrition policy is not popular with a lot of people. So don't assume that this is one of those things that everyone wholeheartedly supports, because when you're dealing with an emerging market, but not so much money, not like unlimited spending, you're not dealing with that, it gets very hard to justify what. We should spend money on and of course nutrition seems like a very much a basic thing that everyone should agree on but That's not always true, right and it's showing right now in which there's a lot of question now Oh will this policy? They used to promise milk.
They can't promise milk anymore, right? Like they can't promise dairy milk anymore. but so what will it look like? They just did a test case in a school, and supposedly it's very good lunch. But again, it's one school. So then the question is what happens if it goes to other schools? what happens when you have millions of students and there's uneven distribution of nutrition, which may happen because it's very complicated to administer free lunch every day to people spread out over thousands of islands. And I think these are the things that becomes a question, but at least the intention for the upcoming administration is there. And the intention is to Build up also our people base, right? Our our knowledge and our nutrition and just our ability to become productive citizens in the future. At least we have that right. But then again, the devil's in the details is in the execution.
So if there's anything that I'm very hopeful about for 2025 is Indonesian private sector's ability to show up and I think Indonesian private sector has done a lot, through challenging, through challenging business policies and all those things, which Indonesia is known to do, but they've shown up time and time again. And I really think, perhaps 2025, they're really going to make new innovations and find ways to make the best of things.
There was talk about investment from Microsoft, investment from all these places. And I really think private sector has a lot to do in 2025. So the question more is, will the public sector want to meet the private sector and collaborate in a productive way so that all this, foreign attention, investment, knowledge transfer, they can be optimized, to make Indonesia a developed nation.
(21:51) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how. So it sounds like you're bullish that next year there will be a school lunch program. Let's see how the rollout is. Fingers crossed. And then, it sounds like, yeah, I think I agree with you. We discussed previously about how the private sector could step up. I mean, obviously the Indonesian government has 5.1 to 5.5%. growth rate, promotional promise 8%, that's a very aggressive target. Singapore's at 2%, this is like Singapore is like, let's beat inflation.
(22:17) Gita Sjahrir:
Let's beat inflation. You know what, as much as I go, why did you just say 8 percent that's so aggressive? To be super fair, maybe sometimes you kind of need a big, Moonshot goal to at least have something to dream for because worse comes to worse You'll beat inflation and maybe you'll have some growth along the way, right? so although I know that 8 percent is kind of just this moonshot goal, there's also nothing wrong with dreaming that far But now the question is more We really should execute, right? We really should set all these things in place so that we get to that golden Indonesia 2045 vision of a developed, or a high income country.
(22:57) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I mean, if Indonesia is growing at six, seven, 8 percent and, Singapore goes back up to doing 3%. I mean, yeah, then everybody's gonna make money together, right? That's the goal. Yeah, more growth is better, rather than less growth.
I guess I think other predictions, I guess if I'm part of it, is probably more green investments in energy, probably in like, the battery side. Feels like those continue to be a lot of a trend that will keep going. And I think also some of the Chinese, manufacturers are moving into Indonesia, into Vietnam. So it sounds like there'll be more JVs as well. That'll be my guess.
(23:30) Gita Sjahrir:
Yeah. I think as always, Indonesia has a lot of potential in the space. We have a lot of interest from other countries, including for things like carbon credits and carbon markets. We have a lot of interest for creating more, green, EV production, all of those things are in our backyard. But again, it's more about could we create all these pro business policy so that all these things can grow and they can thrive? And I think that is the part that Indonesia in the last 10 years, at least we've done that. At least we've created a more, private sector friendly, government collaboration efforts moving forward. The chamber of commerce has been very active in the last 10 years. And so I think if we can continue to have that collaborative partnership between public and private and not for public and private to see each other as competition, then that would only be positive for the country.
(24:23) Jeremy Au:
Yeah. Any cool companies you want to give a shout out to? That's kind of like, it's the predictions here. I mean, I'll start off first is, since I've put you in a spot, I think MAKA Motors, it's founded by Raditya Wibowo, who was the chief transportation officer at Gojek. They're looking to build, kind of like electric motorcycles, got to compete to Chinese manufacturer. So it'd be interesting to see how that turns out. I think he previously was a guest on the Brave SEA podcast. So check out his episode. so I think that'd be interesting. I think, I mean, it's in the team of next year, if EV is a big thing. So let's see how the, Market launch goes and hopefully it as well. Any other companies that on your mind?
(24:56) Gita Sjahrir:
I mean, as much as I want to rattle off my entire portfolio companies, I'm actually going to highlight one that is not in my portfolio at all, and nor am I with them, but I'm just related. So, as my brother is in PT TBS Energi Utama Tbk (TOBA), and TOBA is going to be probably one of the first Indonesian companies to do a full transition towards, Non fossil fuel economy. so that's their big plan. let's see if it works out, but they have made a lot of investments for alternative energy and alternative fuel source goods. And so let's see what happens. So that's it. That's just sisterly love talking. And, Let's see how they go.
(25:39) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, I guess if you're on this list, I mean, I guess one company is good in my portfolio disclosure is Rekosistem, which does kind of like waste management so reduce, reuse, recycle, renewable stuff, waste management, doing well. Obviously I think it's tagged to the fact that if you get richer, you just have more packaging, more plastic. So you got to throw it away. And I think, that could be, I think, tie nicely with that new year.
(26:03) Gita Sjahrir:
Well, I think there's just so much potential right now in a lot of things but waste management is one of those things I'm very bullish about because if there's one thing that unfortunately growing economy will continue to produce its waste. And so the question is more about how do we manage it in a way that's more sustainable over time. And also with Indonesia, waste becomes also a political question because of how localized waste solutions can be so waste solution in West Java does not necessarily mean it'll be the same playbook as East Java, so I think that is one of those things that again, proves that places like Indonesia, basically places where you can see that opportunities lie are kind of where it's fun to play, right? Because then you really try to find these innovations for, these large scale problems.
(26:53) Jeremy Au:
Any companies that you like in your portfolio? I just mentioned one for Rekosistem, right? Ernest Lehman and Joshua Valentino. So you can mention one or two. Come It's like, you don't feel like it's picking your favorite baby. Of course, me saying it makes it even more like picking the favorite baby
(27:07) Gita Sjahrir:
Because I'm going to say something and they're like, how could you not say me? And
(27:12) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, you gotta say it there. You gotta try to say it versus not saying it. You gotta say one.
(27:17) Gita Sjahrir:
No, that's true. The thing is, I need my portfolio companies to know that I love all of them equally. And I really mean this. I really
(27:25) Jeremy Au:
Yeah, you love all of them equally and Jeremy wants you to tell me one.
(27:28) Gita Sjahrir:
But I do really love them equally.Well, actually, I'm just going to go for the one that I just work with a lot together, and that I last see. So I'm just going to go by last seeing them, which is Rukita. So that's a prop tech company. But again, what I really like about their solution is about finding a localized answer to a problem. And I think that is the one thing that we're learning now in the VC ecosystem in Southeast Asia, which is, Hey, maybe let's not take solutions from the US or China and just copy paste into our market like maybe we should localize, and that I think Rukita is one of those examples of what happens when you just localize. And by the way, shout out to all my other portfolio companies who also localized their solutions, which is why I invested into them. Okay, the end, please don't say I prefer one over the other.
(28:20) Jeremy Au:
I mean, okay, well, I mean, let's talk about PropTech a little bit, because I think there's an interesting piece. It's just like everybody wants to own a home one day. Nobody wants to rent forever. So how do you think about that? I mean, for us, at Orvel, we did invest in, Ringkas, by Ilya, who was also a prior guest, which also doing more like underwriting for mortgage loans, for housing. But how do you think about property? And I don't know, is that part of the Indonesia dream is to own property?
(28:42) Gita Sjahrir:
100%, basically the number one thing for a lot of Indonesians growing up is we've been conditioned to always want a home. Like we've been conditioned to want land for some reason, despite sometimes, like not sometimes, a lot of times the ROI on that is terrible or, you look at like your yield per year, it's horrible. It's like, 1, 2 percent maybe. and so I think when we're talking about land, real estate, it's still very much an emotional purchasing decision for a lot of people in my generation where we've just been taught to want land or want real estate. And so, a lot of these companies that are coming up helping with mortgage and all of that. I think, again, it boils back down to, I'm really glad there's private sector solution for this, but I'm really going to also ask the public sector, what are you doing to help the next generation of Indonesians? To be able to afford any housing? What are you doing really exactly like how are you making for example mortgage to be just more accessible?
What are you doing so that people don't have to save up for 25 years to finally put a down payment? I'm actually going to do a shout out for a movie for people who are able to access this movie. I hope you can. It might be on netflix one day I don't know, but it's called "Home Sweet Loan" and it's a great, artistic discussion of, yeah, what happens to the average Indonesian person who makes only a certain amount every month and their entire, journey to just make a down payment for a house while at the same time having to pay off debt by their family members or having to pay off their family members like livelihoods and these are really big questions in Indonesian communities, right? So in Indonesia, we have an entire thing called the "sandwich generation", which is this idea that not only are you paying for your own family, you're also paying for your parents or your brothers or sisters. Or your cousin? And these are just, again, really big structural questions about, can Indonesia make economic growth more equal?
(30:51) Jeremy Au:
Now I probably have to check out this movie called Sweet Loan. I like, I like the name.
(30:55) Gita Sjahrir:
I do too. And I'm gonna give a shout out to just the Indonesian film industry as a whole, because I really think they've been coming out with amazing stuff. So feel free to watch more Indonesian films on your Netflix if you see them.
(31:10) Jeremy Au:
Okay, maybe you have to do like one of those like watch and react kind of things.
(31:14) Gita Sjahrir:
Yes. do it.
(31:15) Jeremy Au:
So, yeah, no, I think that's, also part of the Singapore dream for property as well. I mean, I think, around like 75 to 80 percent of Singaporeans residents live in public housing. I mean, everybody would love to own some land as well, but as much land in Singapore, I guess, that's the tough part.
(31:29) Gita Sjahrir:
Yeah.
(31:30) Jeremy Au:
On that note, thank you so much, Gita and, peace out. We'll see you next time round.
(31:34) Gita Sjahrir:
Of course. Talk to you soon. Bye.