Maria Li: Tech in Asia Acquisition by Singapore Press Holdings & Startup Winter to AI Spring - E571

"If you just had some sort of automated process where all press releases went into ChatGPT and then ChatGPT was crunching the information and spinning it back out, I think the quality of information will eventually degrade, right? It would be a really good — it could create a really good Wikipedia, objective, put-together information, but I think the insights wouldn't be there necessarily. So I think there's still a role for newsrooms to play in the AI world. But whether or not there's a need, I think you would have to be ultimately really niche, like hyper-localized, which I think you're starting to see in some of the US. In the US, there's some really hyper-local state content, deeply insights-driven, tapping into experts' expertise that AI otherwise wouldn't have. And then again, maybe like scoops driven. I don't know. It's my working." - Maria Li, Chief Operating Officer at Tech in Asia

"You know, I think technology is agnostic, right? It's really how you use technology. And I've been getting more into the climate tech space specifically, and I think it's super interesting because, like, on the one hand, technology is one of the things that have gotten us into the climate crisis I think we're now in. And then honestly, AI and the use of data centers and the water and the power usage and energy usage is not great. But at the same time, it's like, okay, then the way we kind of innovate our way out of this is also through technology. And so, you know, technology is what it is. It's just a tool. It's really all about how you use it, how you want to apply it in your life. And it's all about you making sure that you're using the tool as opposed to technology using you. And I think that's probably where, if you think about Facebook's growth model, which was like utilizing the user data without them even really knowing and then being able to build their marketing machines off of that." - Maria Li, Chief Operating Officer at Tech in Asia

"The reality is that when you're in the negotiation process for the acquisition, everything is rosy, right? You're both like, wow, look at this amazing market opportunity. If we only join forces, we can go capture that. And then the worst case scenario — you've heard about the acquisitions that have gone wrong, like the teams don't get along together. And then within 3 to 5 years or whatever, there's a management buyout or they shut down, right? I think probably the reality is always going to be somewhere in between. And so being able to level set your expectations in terms of like — and you need to be able to think, okay — and to run all the permutations before you sign the SPA, right? It's like, okay, what do I want out of this for my company, best and worst case scenario? What do I want out of this for myself, best and worst case scenario? You know, and just really kind of play out all the possible ways that it could end up. And I think as long as you go into that with that sort of mental framework, you'll be able to handle things a lot better, right?" - Maria Li, Chief Operating Officer at Tech in Asia

Jeremy Au reconnects with Maria Li to explore how Tech in Asia is navigating Southeast Asia’s startup winter, generative AI disruption, and corporate acquisition pressures while maintaining community-first values. Together, they discuss AI experimentation, acquisition integration, leadership dynamics, and balancing the demands of modern media and parenthood. The discussion highlights lessons in adapting to rapid change, staying transparent, and making intentional choices in business and life.

01:36 Tech Winter and Paywall Strategy: Maria explains how Southeast Asia’s startup slowdown pushed Tech in Asia to loosen its paywall, balancing revenue with keeping the community informed during tougher times.

03:51 Navigating AI and Market Changes: AI disrupted the media landscape. Maria shares how they are experimenting with AI-generated content and new product ideas to stay relevant and useful for their audience.

05:20 The SPH Acquisition Experience: The acquisition brought benefits but also slower corporate processes. Maria highlights protecting startup culture by selectively opting into SPH’s systems while keeping focus on core operations.

10:15 Reflections on the COO Role: Maria describes how market pressures shifted her COO role towards sales, HR, and nimble operations, emphasizing clear communication and alignment with CEO Willis.

19:01 AI’s Impact on Media and Proprietary Data: With AI commoditizing general news, Maria sees proprietary startup data and scoops as key advantages that keep Tech in Asia essential and differentiated.

27:54 The Role of Media in Information Distribution: Media reduces opacity in Southeast Asia’s tech scene. Maria cites Glass Wall as a tool that surfaced hidden industry knowledge, helping founders avoid bad actors.

40:27 Parenting in the Digital Age: Maria shares her parenting approach limiting social media, allowing moderated screen time, and using AI for productive learning while delaying harmful exposure.

(00:53) Jeremy Au: Hey, Maria! Good to have you back on the show. 

(00:56) Maria Li: Thank you for having me back. It's great to do this in person. 

(00:58) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I know, right? I mean, we (01:00) did this about, you know, one and a half years ago, online. It was a different world. 

(01:04) I'm just kind of curious and Maria, so obviously, you know, things have changed since then.

(01:07) That was also the acquisition by Singapore Press Holdings. So, you know, a lot has happened. There's also the new US elections as well. And of course, we see the whole AI also happened between then and now as well in terms of generative AI, large language models, and thought video.

(01:24) So, a lot of change actually. And I just want to kind of get that update from you. So, you know, first of all, I just wanna ask you that, you said that one thing, which is you're starting to loosen up your strategy for paywall. So what's going on in the tech of nature? 

(01:37) Maria Li: I mean, I think a few things. So, one is, one of the big things that have shifted, is just honestly like tech winter, right? Like we're still in it. And I think the startup scene in Southeast Asia is dramatically different. We launched our paywall at the end of 2018, like September 2018. And you know, we still fundamentally believe that subscription is in place for premium content because like, that's where we (02:00) dedicate the most amount of like resource and editing time.

(02:02) I mean, it takes like, I mean, I don't really know, but like hours and like, 20, 30, 40 hours to write a single premium content article. And it's what YC always says, right? Like build a product that people want. And if you build something that's really valuable, then they're willing to pay for it.

(02:15) And so, I think we still do believe in that. With that said, I do think obviously between tech winter, startups are a little bit less hot. Southeast Asia sadly has fallen a bit out of favor as well, I think on a global level as well. And then the rise of AI. And so, I think there are all these like macro forces where to us it's also important to make sure that our community stays relatively well informed that we're not being like, too standoffish with the paywall.

(02:38) And so, we're looking for ways to kind of loosen up the paywall so that we can still create revenue out of what we think are the most important pieces which is our premium content pieces. But to the extent that there's information that we could just be distributing to the community without having to worry about the economics and the commercials behind it, then we wanna do that too.

(02:55) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So, I think it's interesting because there's so many different factors that (03:00) impacted the business on a macro perspective,

(03:01) right? Which is tech winter, Southeast Asia winter. Yeah. And then AI and then of course, the acquisition. So, there's a lot to unpack for those different. He says like, where do you wanna start? How do you think about it? Which one is the most important to you of those, let's say four factors and how is embedded Teia resolution is the least important from your perspective?

(03:21) Yeah. 

(03:22) Maria Li: That's a good question. I think the thing, I mean, they all have differing factors, right? Right. So, I would probably lump together the tech and Southeast Asia winter into one thing. It's obviously a headwind for us. But we believe it's cyclical. And so from that perspective, it's like,

(03:36) it sucks, but you know, like you gotta heads down, grind it out like stay smart, stay aware, stay, you know, like stay sensitive to what the market is, is saying and doing, but also maybe not sweat it too much on that one. So, and just like, and do a few product tweaks in order to manage that. I think on the AI front, that's something that, actually we're quite excited about.

(03:55) In some ways it could be the scariest of them all, but I think in other ways it's also the (04:00) biggest opportunity. And so, you know, there are very few moments I feel like in someone's life and it's, it's, you know, it's actually really weird that we're CoVid was one, and now AI's another where like the entire world is kind of going through something together. 

(04:12) Jeremy Au: Right.

(04:12) Maria Li: And so AI's one of those things where we're just excited about it. We don't really, like, nobody knows what it means, but it's actually kind of fun to be able to sit together, think about like, what does AI mean? I mean sure for me as an individual, but actually for us as a media business in particular.

(04:29) And we can get into a little bit more details and then really kind of rethink about like, okay, what value are we adding to the community? You know, like what role do we have to play in the world of AI when everyone's like just you, you can ChatGPT or Perplexity and answer or whatever. Like, and how do we continue to

(04:44) deliver to our core mission, which is still to build and serve Asia tech and startup community. And then to be honest, the SBH acquisition hasn't really affected that much on internal operations which is great. And so yeah. And so we continue to run. The main thing is we actually just moved into the SBH headquarters 

(04:59) in January, (05:00) like two months ago. So, like, it's, it's coming in in small ways, but I think day- to- day tech in Asia hasn't made a huge impact. Yeah. And that's partially by design, right? To credit, they said that they never wanted to change TIA, that they just wanted to like integrate and so like actually think that that has been, they've definitely held true to their promise and I very much appreciate that.

(05:20) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So let's talk about acquisition because when it happened, I think people were very happy because, you know, this is a space, that has obviously been difficult to see acquisitions in. Yep. I think that's one side. So I think it's like kind of like a little milestone. And a well deserved one.

(05:34) You know, what has that overall experience been? Because it's about a year and a quarter, right? Yeah. So how has that been for you all? 

(05:41) Maria Li: It's been a learning process. Yeah. So I've worked in corporates before, Apple and Deloitte previously. So I have some sense of how corporates work, but I've never worked in Singaporean corporate.

(05:50) And then Willis, our CEO and founder, has never worked in corporate. So it makes mixed experiences. So I do think that, corporates work at a certain pace, yeah, a lot (06:00) slower. They are much more risk averse, obviously.

(06:02) They have many more policies. And so for us it's actually been, we're trying to pick and choose, like as if it's a menu. We're trying to pick and choose the parts of the SVH parts that we wanna opt into and the parts that we wanna opt out of. So actually from a business perspective, there's a lot of great opportunities with SVH because we can cross sell, we can cross collaborate, we can partner on a bunch of things.

(06:19) And so, there is demand in the market for that. So actually from the commercial standpoint, the SPH acquisition has been great. From the employee perspective, we've opted to keep our own HR policies because we think we're friendlier more flexible, than what SBH offers. And so, yeah.

(06:34) So, I think we're being extremely selfish right now. Just being like, okay, here's where we wanna opt in, here's where we wanna opt out. And then for me personally, there's a bit more reporting requirements, like I get pings from like HR versus finance versus you know, and they're like, can you fill in this sheet?

(06:48) And so, it's also about a matter of prioritization. And so, I think one thing that we've been really clear about from the beginning since we announced the acquisition, we wanna maintain our core culture in terms of the pace we work at and how we think about things,

(06:59) the (07:00) experimental mindset, the very startupy hustle type of thing. So we're very protective of that bit. And even when it comes to my work, I'm always gonna prioritize things that I think will fundamentally move the TIA business forward versus things that's kind of like a cYA Thing that it's requested on behalf of SVH. 

(07:16) Jeremy Au: And for those who don't know, CYA probably means "cover your ass". 

(07:19) Maria Li: That means cover your ass. We need to report this to cover our ass in case anybody asks for blah, blah, blah. And so, I'm just like, that's nice, but that's not the job.

(07:27) You know, that's like, fluff around the job. And so it's always like, let's just stay really, yeah, like work focused. 

(07:33) Jeremy Au: Yeah, that's totally right. And so, for those who are thinking about acquisitions, it's quite a rare phenomenon in Southeast Asia so far. 

(07:40) Maria Li: Sadly. Yeah. Yes. 

(07:42) Jeremy Au: So, do you have any advice for people who are considering an an acquisition?

(07:45) Any advice you give for them? 

(07:47) Maria Li: Yeah, of course. I mean. Wow. I mean so many. I have lots of thoughts on like the actual acquisition process and things I think we could have done better. Um, 'cause it was my first time kind of guiding an acquisition. So, there's just a (08:00) lot in the actual negotiation process and the closing process that I've never gone through before.

(08:05) And I think that, I mean, I think we made out okay, but I do think that if this happens again or what the advice I would give, like, there's some really specific things that I think, founders in the startup side needs to be a lot sharper about. But I would say it is just, it's also expectation management, to be honest. The reality is that like when you're in the negotiation process for the acquisition, everything is rosy, right? Like you're both like, 'wow, like look at this amazing market opportunity. If we only join forces, we can go capture that.' And then the worst case scenario you've heard about the acquisitions that have gone wrong, you know, like the teams don't get along together.

(08:36) And then within three to five years or whatever, there's like a management bio or they shut down, right? I think probably the reality is always gonna be somewhere in between. And so, being able to level set your expectations in terms of like, and you need to be able to think, okay, and to run all the permutations before you sign the SPA, right?

(08:53) It's like, okay, what do I out of this for my company? Best and worst case scenario. What do I want out of this for myself? Best and worst case (09:00) scenario. You know, and just like really kind of play out all the possible ways that it could end up. And I think, as long as you go into that with that sort of mental framework, you'll be able to handle things a lot better.

(09:11) Right. So, like what I'll say is fundamentally, I still think the acquisition was great for us, the right thing to do for the company. But truthfully, there were certain initiatives that I thought would get off the ground a lot faster. Still no line of sight on that, you know?

(09:24) There's no visibility as to when it might happen. So, things have just moved, things have played out a little bit differently than my ideal scenario. But better than my worst case scenario. And so, I'm okay, right? But I think if you were just pegging it on the best case scenario, 

(09:37) you would be really disappointed. Yeah. So you know, the quote from Arthur Brooks that we kind of mentioned earlier was, "expectations minus reality is happiness." Ah. And so, yeah, it's a bit like you can hope, but maybe keep your own expectations a little bit lower just so that you're not disappointed and you feel like, yeah.

(09:54) And I think that's been rate for me, you know. And I'm still just focusing on what brings me (10:00) happiness, which is I love working with our team, I love working with our community and our users, I love the events that we do, and so it's like just focus on those things as opposed to spending too much the like, you know, some of these like big dreams that we had that maybe are moving a little bit more slowly than I would otherwise like to see.

(10:15) Jeremy Au: And I think what's interesting is that, you know, we are both COOs, right? So, you're the COO and I'm a COO. I'm just kind of curious, like, have there been any reflections that you have about, you know, being a COO over the past two years about your way of work or what you need to do to become, I guess, more productive as COO?

(10:30) Maria Li: Yeah. The COO role is always so funny to me because it means a slightly different thing at every company. I feel like, 'cause the COO generally as a second command to the CEO, but the CEOs are all very different. So, depending on what the CEOs like to do, the COOs tend to be like to fill in the,

(10:44) the negative space around that, right, yeah. So, I was talking to FinTech CEO the other day, and then she was like, 'my job is all about managing risk', right? . And I'm like, what do you mean? And she's just like, I have to make sure that like, we're in compliance. It's like a very regulatory heavy kind of thing.

(10:59) And (11:00) I was just like, wow, that is so different than my job. So, my job as COO, I'm very much like a commercial CEO and then a finance and operation. So, yeah. So, like I run the sales team and a lot of our commercial stuff, events, of course, HR, and finance. And so that, has it shifted? I think it's shifted in the sense that like, because of some of the market pressures we're seeing because of the tech and startup winter and Southeast Asia winter is, you know, like we, we just have to be a lot more nimble.

(11:31) And it's just a constantly evolving process and so, I feel like you just have to be out on the forefront all the time and like you're constantly improving and you know, I would argue that we, we're crushing it on product market fit on a few different products a few years ago, and actually on a few of those products, I actually think that we've lost a bit of that PMF and so we're refining it again.

(11:53) Yeah, and it's just constantly experimental. But your CEO role 

(11:56) Jeremy Au: in biotech is, yeah. I would say more on the (12:00) finance, HR, investor relations. So, I think definitely a strong CFO component. Yeah, I would say so. But also very strong troubleshooting and global expansion piece as well. 

(12:09) Maria Li: That's 

(12:10) Jeremy Au: interesting

(12:10) as well. But like you said, it's not an easy piece and I think, a lot of struggle because, you know, it's really about having that chemistry and compatibility to work, right? Any reflections? I mean, you've been working with him for so many years now, 

(12:21) Maria Li: on Willis?

(12:21) Yeah, exactly. Willis and I have like an amazing working relationship, Super hotheaded. Actually, we just did our last monthly town hall. One of the anonymous questions that came in was like, "how do we diffuse Maria and Willis when they get really fired up?" I think personality and temperament wise were really similar. And I'm a very honest and transparent person, like you will always know how I feel about something partially, 'cause I can't hide it for shit.

(12:43) But Willis is like next level communicator, right? He's so transparent and that makes it really easy, right, to work with him because you always know what he's thinking and and so, I think for us that foundation of like super tight comms has been the (13:00) best thing. It just means that like, even if I disagree with him or like whatever he's doing, you know like, there's no misunderstanding in terms of like what he's doing and why.

(13:09) And I think same thing on my side. And you know, and we also respect what Willis will say, sometimes we just agree to disagree, but one person needs to make the decision and so here's what we're gonna do. And I just feel like that eliminates a lot of those like, lingering conflicts or lingering tensions that could eventually take down a working relationship, right?

(13:27) Because you just have years of like these, like, I don't know, pent up resentment or tension or whatever it is, and we just, you know, we never give that room to start. And yeah. And as a result, I think, it's just, it's been easy to work with him. 

(13:41) Jeremy Au: Yeah. That's amazing. And I think what's interesting is that, you know, it feels like that relationship's so key because like you said, it's such a tumultous set of dynamics.

(13:49) I mean, showing up as product market fit, showing as AI showing, as being part of a broader mothership as well. So, how does that translate, I guess, from, that nucleus of, you know, the two of you working together through (14:00) your team, I guess, interfacing all these changes? 

(14:03) Maria Li: I mean, I think because of the comms between us and because we're very aligned vision wise, it's easy for us to deliver a cohesive message to the team.

(14:11) Right? And so, I think that's first things first. Because obviously, nothing creates chaos more than people saying different things. Right? So like, internally, especially like, what's the vision of the company? Where are we going? How do we feel about the acquisition? Like nothing creates chaos more than just if you're delivering two different messages.

(14:27) So, I think that's really critical is that we're always kind of speaking with like one voice and you can always tell when something's like a little bit more Willis versus a little bit more Maria. But like big picture wise, we're driving to the same direction and that helps the team really get on board.

(14:40) And then everything else is honestly just like a divide and conquer strategy. So, uncritical decisions, obviously, one of us takes the lead but then crosscheck with the other ones and then we just kind of divvy up. Because I do finance and operations and HR a lot more, I have to interface with SB lot more on some of these like necessary and required reporting things.

(14:58) And (15:00) like two weeks ago at our one-on-one, he was like, 'Hey, are you okay? 'Cause you had seemed to interface with them all the time.' He was like, 'are you okay?' Like, is that, you know, like, 'is that stressing you out?' And like, so it's also just open acknowledgement and I'm like, yeah, sure.

(15:11) It's maybe not my favorite part of the job. Yeah. All this reporting stuff. But I get it. It's necessary and yeah. You know, these are certain things that you just like soldier on through. Yeah. So, so I think, yeah, being able to like the clear comms for the team, the clear decision maker on any one given topic or project and so, is really helpful as well.

(15:32) And then just like constantly checking in with each other. 

(15:34) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. 

(15:35) Maria Li: It's not magic, right? Yeah. It's just like a lot of. Hard work and long, long slack messages.

(15:41) Jeremy Au: The legendary Slack message. 

(15:42) Maria Li: And of course, very regular one-on-one. 

(15:44) Jeremy Au: Communications. Yeah. And I, I think what the tricky part is obviously, you know, communications is harder than, you know, executive level, and it's a little easy, right?

(15:52) Because at that level, everyone's an adult. 

(15:55) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(15:55) Jeremy Au: And nobody's gonna do a rookie mistake in communicating. 

(15:57) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(15:58) Jeremy Au: But I, I think it'd be quite difficult because the (16:00) topics can be quite complex, right? Yeah. I mean, the ones that you've already given are quite complex already, right?

(16:04) There's AI, there's product market fit, yeah, there's commercialization, there's, I mean, there's all kinds of different things that you've gotta do. Is there any advice that you would give people, you know, who are new to COO job or the C-suite job about how to communicate at a, you know what I'm saying,

(16:19) like C-suite level? Yeah. 

(16:20) Maria Li: I think, I think this is all gonna sound really basic. But you do see it go wrong on like a day-to-day basis. But you know, first things first is I think you have to define the fundamental objective and goal that you're trying to reach. Right? Because I think if you don't put that down on paper,

(16:36) this could be as simple as like, okay, we're hiring for this new role. What's our ideal candidate for the role? Or what do we think that role looks like? You know, you might be head of sales or events director or something that sounds pretty obvious. But then what you might define as a successful candidate is slightly different than what I define.

(16:49) And so, being able to write down these things or when we think about how we want to adapt TIA in the age of AI, we have to define what our goal for this project, for this entire (17:00) brainstorming session or initiative is in order to then, I think that definition of the goal and objective upfront is critically important because otherwise you have people solving several different permutations of a similar problem but not the exact same problem.

(17:15) So goals, goal definition, objective upfront, for sure. And then I think being very clear about the ground rules, like how are you gonna evaluate, what's the decision making process? Giving definitely, of course, like giving airtime to everybody who has an opinion about it. And then at the end of the

(17:32) process, like no matter how you're running it, but then also like the conclusion and then also maybe the agreeing to disagree part, but still being able to move forward, right? So, if you're doing a brainstorm and you know, your idea wasn't picked and you really, really hate the idea that was picked, there still needs to be a point where you're gonna say, okay,

(17:50) I disagree. I've expressed my reasons why, but because this is what the broader team wants and, you know, these are the rules of the playing field, I'm going to still commit (18:00) wholeheartedly to that. And yeah, because it's all about like what's best for the overall company as opposed to what's best for a particular individual or a team.

(18:08) And I think that's where just a lot of misconduct ends up happening, right? Because people will feel like, I don't know. it's like a race and you know it, and everyone at the C level tends to be a bit competitive anyway, so it's like, oh, if you pay, it's like, it feels like a zero sum game where it's if your idea got picked but my idea didn't get paid, you're gonna get the next

(18:25) promotion or you know, you get the shine and the glory, whereas I don't. And so, you have to be able to remove a lot of these like more human feelings that I think don't go spoken, because sometimes people feel like they're being petty, you know, like, or they just don't wanna express it. Um, 'cause they're also embarrassed about feeling it, but they still feel it.

(18:41) And so, yeah, you have, it's just being able to remove, I think a lot of these things and not ignore them, but just like air them out, put them out, you know, direct sunlight kills a lot of germs and so just like sanitize it as such. 

(18:54) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think when we think about all these communication norms, you know, you've been doing all of these (19:00) communications. 

(19:01) I'm just kind of curious, like how have the conversations internally been about AI, for example, so you said it's both an opportunity .Yeah. As well as something that's dangerous as well. So, I'm just kind of curious, how you think about it? Because yeah, from the face of it is today, if I wanna find out what is the

(19:16) fundraising status of something. Maybe I've in the past gone to Tech in Asia. 

(19:20) Maria Li: Yep. 

(19:20) Jeremy Au: Or may use Google for it, but now I can use Perplexity or the new Google World AI search, and then it spits out the answer on role one, right? Yeah. You know, I never click into the link or whatever it is.

(19:31) Yeah. So, I'm just kind of curious how the internal conversations are about this change here? 

(19:35) Maria Li: For sure. So, okay. Full disclosure, AI is a project that's led by Willis, but obviously I've been part of the overall process. But you know fundamentally, when ChatGPT had its like wow moment, was it November 2023? 

(19:48) Jeremy Au: Around there. 

(19:48) Maria Li: Yeah, okay. I think we immediately knew that it was gonna affect a content business and a media business like ours. So, you know, what you've seen over the last year is multiple iterations of different AI products. So, we first tried news (20:00) by AI, then like fully AI written stories, then edited by humans of course.

(20:05) So, we're trying AI in all sorts of different iterations within the company. But I think fundamentally, what we have to ask ourselves is in the age of AI, assuming that Perplexity Chat Gemini, whatever, all get stronger and better. What fundamental role does TIA play? 

(20:20) Or does any company like TIA play? Right. And so that was our overarching goal and objective. It wasn't to say like, how do we adapt our newsroom to Ai? Or how do we use AI? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So like, I think that problem definition was really critical, which is simply, and so that allowed us to go even broader.

(20:38) Right now our main businesses are either on the editorial front or our defense front. And so it allowed us to go broader where we thinking like as a company. How do we define our own value and continue to find product market fit and customers in an AI age.

(20:52) So, then we kicked off a lot of different experiments and MVPs in order to kind of test some of our ideas against it. We've convened like (21:00) a brain trust, if you will, across the company, across multiple functions to really kind of think about this.

(21:05) And so, we're pulling in the responses and where we've ultimately landed is that fundamentally, I think proprietary data, and this isn't unique to tech in Asia. But proprietary data sources are clearly becoming really, really important. And so we still believe that we're sitting on like a gold mine of proprietary data when it comes to Asia's tech and startup community.

(21:22) And so that's something that we're definitely holding onto and we're developing products against that, that allows us to continue to inform and connect and support our community. In a way that a ChatGPT or a Perplexity wouldn't be able to, right? You know, competing to rewrite the same press release that gets sent around because there's no sense in even wasting resources on that. But, would be to like, okay, on the journalist front, be like, okay, scoops are still fundamentally human driven, right? Like, that's still a WhatsApp or an email, somebody writing in to tell.

(21:50) So like, we're reorienting ourselves to do what humans do best, of course. In the media context and then specifically events. We're also thinking about like, okay, events is, you know, it's because you want that (22:00) connection. So far, agents are not good enough in order to network on your behalf. And so, you know, leaning into the event side, the more human side as well, but then also figuring out how to use AI to turbocharge the, the networking and the connections that we are able to deliver at our events,

(22:16) yeah. No, I think it makes a lot of sense because I like what you said, which is not just about augmenting the newsroom of AI, but also seeing what is the fundamental role of news and in the world of AI, right? Because I'm just kind of curious what do you think about that? What's the fundamental role of

(22:31) Jeremy Au: I would say tech in Asia or is it a fundamental role of news agencies? How would you, you know, in That's 

(22:35) Maria Li: a good point. It's slightly different in my opinion. Don't think we are so wedded to our newsroom, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. Like it's been one of the best ways for us to connect, deliver information, you know, like put Southeast Asia's tech and startup community on the map.

(22:49) Like it's been a great way for us to add value. But if you say in the AI world that Perplexity or ChatGPT or whatever, any of these LMS can, um, can deliver information better that then we're like, okay, (23:00) that's cool. But again, our mission is to build and serve Asia's tech and startup community. So, then we go back to the drawing board and we're like, okay, then what,

(23:06) how do we add value there? Right. And that's where, you know, we're lucky that we have a great events, business as well. So that's where we're like, okay, maybe we lean into this. So, I mean, the jury's out like we haven't fully decided to be honest. But we do have a few working hypotheses as to how we can continue to add value in the AI world.

(23:23) And some of them get pretty far away from our newsroom. 'Cause we're just like, that's not something we want to compete in. Now, for a newsroom who identifies and they're like, I want to stay a newsroom, I think that's, you know, that is a tougher question. I mean, again, you have to go back to a proprietary data set, like what are you doing?

(23:40) And then similarly like, you know, LLMs AI can only write based off of whatever the input is, so you still need the input somehow. And so I don't know what that looks like. It's like, would that be, I mean, I can tell you that, I mean, we received a ton of press releases. Like you're, if you just like had some sort of automated process where like all press (24:00) releases went into, ChatGPT and then ChatGPT was like crunching the information, spinning it back out, I don't, I think the quality of information will eventually degrade,

(24:07) right? It would be a really good, um, it could create a really good, like Wikipedia objective, like put together the information, but I think the insights wouldn't be there necessarily. So, I think there's still, there is a room for a role for newsrooms to play in the AI world. But whether or not there's a need, I think you would have to be ultimately really niche like Hyperlocalized.

(24:28) Which I think you're starting to see in some of the US, in the US like there's some really hyperlocal state content, deeply insights driven, you know, you're tapping into experts, expertise that AI otherwise wouldn't have. And then again, maybe like scoops driven, I don't know. It's my working hypothesis 

(24:43) Jeremy Au: actually.

(24:44) I mean, it's pretty good. I mean, I agree about scoops, expert driven, hyper localization, propriety data, those are the only ways that, 

(24:51) Maria Li: Yeah, you 

(24:51) Jeremy Au: know, the AI can't do because they can outperforming the synthesis side, right? Yeah. I think scoops is also a quite interesting dynamic because you know, to some extent we acknowledge the Southeast Asia (25:00) tech scene,

(25:01) it has some level obesity to it, right? I mean, I think it's more transparent compared to where it was 10 years ago. Yes. Thanks to tech in Asia. But there's definitely still a lot of random nonsense happening. Yeah. I mean, obesity could be positive in which case a company just has a certain proprietary advantage.

(25:17) They want to do and keep, which makes sense. . And then also all way to fraud, right? Yeah. And scandals. I think we recently get EFishery as a scandal. Yeah. We had RY as another one. So, I think there's different dynamics there. I think you guys also scooped on octopus as well.

(25:31) Maria Li: So, I thought it was interesting to see that dynamic. I do feel like Ry Asia ,Tech and Asia have been focused on that scoop, that angle quite aggressively. Yeah. Over the past, you know, six months. 

(25:39) Yeah. I mean, historically, yeah, you're a history buff, but historically, you know the role of media

(25:45) was to be like a fact checker as to what's happening. Right? Right. Like, so journalists fundamentally in their blood love, they're kind of like auditors in my mind, like journalists and auditors have like that similar DNA in them that like compels them to be like, is this the truth? Yeah. And (26:00) like, if not, I'm gonna go figure out what the truth is.

(26:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there, you know, professionally, they're skeptical by nature, right? Yeah. Like they're, they're trained to question what other people accept as like fruit and fact. And so, that doesn't go away in the AI world. I think if anything, it just gives 'em more time to do that as opposed to, you know, having to work on like multiple drafts and edited and things like that.

(26:21) So, yeah. And the other thing about the opacity is, okay, what did you think about Glass Wall when it came out last year? 

(26:28) Jeremy Au: I think, or 

(26:28) Maria Li: VC review site? You, the VC review site. Yeah, that's a good 

(26:31) Jeremy Au: one. It came up and then, were you still at 

(26:33) Maria Li: Monk Cell then? 

(26:33) Jeremy Au: I was at Monk Cell at that point in time.

(26:36) Yes. Yeah, I, I thought it was, you know, it was something that I had thought about In the context of Brave. 

(26:41) Maria Li: But then 

(26:41) Jeremy Au: I just felt like, frankly, I was just like, I didn't feel like if I was in Monk's Hill, yeah, I wasn't, it 

(26:47) Maria Li: wouldn't be great. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't neutral. You not neutral. Yeah, for sure.

(26:49) And 

(26:49) Jeremy Au: also as one, somebody who's inside the community hosting that, that everyone's gonna shit on me. 

(26:54) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(26:54) Jeremy Au: So when you did it, I was like, bet you did it. Because I'm not, I'm not interested hosting it, but I'm just in, (27:00) in the existence of it. 'Cause I think it's important. 'cause I've never seen a lot of founders who have gotten, frankly, screwed by bad VCs in Southeast Asia.

(27:08) Right? Yeah. And, and you hear all these stories or see like the blow back of it. And I just felt like, yeah, I think it's a good transparency effort in a window. So, yeah, if you ask me, I was, appreciative, I was amused. I benefited from rereading it as well. 

(27:20) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(27:20) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So yeah, that's, I, I don't want you think about it, but that's what I, 

(27:24) Maria Li: well, I bring it up because on the opacity point. 

(27:26) There are also things that actually people know in the community. 

(27:29) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(27:30) Maria Li: Everybody who's like, been around for a while knows. Yeah. But it's never written down. Yeah. It's just like whispered. 

(27:35) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(27:36) Maria Li: And Glass Wall actually proved that, in my opinion, on a, on a number of occasions. But like there had, there were certain things that got written in Glass Wall that you had always heard about.

(27:44) But if you were a new founder, you weren't really plugged into this community, right? Like, if you're the Lussan's founder, like you wouldn't necessarily know these things about the VC. And so, like to me, that's also asymmetry of information. Right. And so, one thing that I, that media will continue to play is like actually distribute (28:00) the distribution of information to create like a more 

(28:02) symmetrical and even playing field, right? And glass wall really felt like that, made it really obvious to me. 'Cause like, for a certain, I mean, lots of people complained. Lots of people loved it, but there were complaints, of course. But, but industry insiders generally were like, there was almost nothing on that site that surprised me.

(28:19) Yeah. Whereas like, people who hadn't been around for quite as long and weren't as plugged in, we're like, I learned so much from that site. And that's where we're like, okay, actually, you know, we still fundamentally believe that this creates value and is good for the community to be able to level out that opacity and create a little bit more transparency.

(28:37) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I totally agree about that. And I think it's interesting because from my perspective it was like, I think another layer to that would be people in Singapore were more likely to be aware, Yes, but people who were in Vietnam or the Philippines that were further out from these nodes were less aware, right? Yeah. And so there's interesting geographical layer where your product was really helpful 

(28:55) Maria Li: for 

(28:56) Jeremy Au: people who were not plugged in Right. And plugged in mean, like they're not plugged into the Singapore (29:00) ecosystem, for example. Right? Yeah. So, I thought this is an interesting, cross country dynamic. 'Cause also it was helpful for Singaporean founders to learn about other countries VCs' as well. So, it went both ways, but I think it was just an interesting dynamic. Yeah. 

(29:12) Maria Li: Yeah. I mean, imagine being like a first time founder, you're, I don't know, 28 years old or whatever. 

(29:17) And you just like, the VC was like super rude to you, you know, and then you're just like, oh my God, I suck. You know, like you internalize that sort, like there's so much ups and down in building a startup anyways, but definitely they, you know, like a bad meeting like that can make you feel so small and like really question what you're doing.

(29:33) But you could go to a class and be like, oh, actually this VC treats everybody like that, right? Like, there's like a little bit of comfort. You're like, okay, it's not just me. 

(29:39) Jeremy Au: Yeah, it is not that you're terrible, just, he's, it's them, right? Yeah, exactly. It's 

(29:42) Maria Li: not right. So like, I mean, if we can bring like a little bit of emotional comfort so that people don't feel like this journey is so lonely,

(29:50) and then obviously fundraising I think is when many founders feel the most exposed. They feel like, yeah, that's like the hardest part of the job for them. And so like, you know, if we're just trying to bring a little bit of comfort and (30:00) support, and knowledge and awareness.

(30:01) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think one interesting is that, you know, you mentioned earlier that there are some products you feel have strong product fit.

(30:07) Some other areas they're looking to kind of improve over time. I just kind of curious any color on that. 

(30:11) Maria Li: So I mean, again, subscription, like I mentioned, we're loosening our paywall. I think it's not because we lost product market fit, but we do need to adapt what a media subscription looks like in the world of AI,

(30:21) and in the world of these other macro forces. So, yeah, that one we're adjusting, tweaking, of course. I mean, honestly our jobs board, it's like, because tech startups have mostly been laying off over these last few years versus hiring. That was something that was like doing really well for us but you know, tech, the interest in tech talent has slightly declined.

(30:39) I mean, of course AI remains really high, but everything else is a fraction of what the volume used to be. And so like, we just view that as cyclical. And then, yeah. So, what else? The database is actually something that we haven't had the time and attention to crack it, but I do feel like our database, we have like almost a hundred thousand proprietary data points about, companies and (31:00) information about their hiring, their funding rent, and it's

(31:01) very specific. We can compare it on a head-to-head basis with like a traction or Crunchbase and we have data in there that's not. So, I feel like we haven't properly monetized it yet. That's also where Glass Wall sits and then eventually it's just like continuously involving business, right?

(31:15) Like how people connect. I mean, the thing with events is like, especially after CoVid, everybody wants to do their own in-person event. And so, there's a ton of competition out there. And so, you know, that one is just like the in-person business, It is like you have to evolve and upgrade every single year.

(31:30) Like there is no off year for event. Yeah. Every single year you need to be delivering like, better speakers, better topics, better in person experience. And so, that one is not like a product market fit thing, it's just like the name of the game. You just gotta keep going. Um.

(31:43) It's quite a treadmill. Yeah, I can imagine actually. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because, you know, we saw the kind of like ping pong a little bit. It was like before CoVid it was events. And after that, CoVid was like, it's all remote. And after that became hybrid.

(31:54) Jeremy Au: And now we're kind of like bifurcating again. I don't know. So, I'm just kind of curious like, what's your point of view on (32:00) in-person events or community events? How do you see that happening? 

(32:02) Maria Li: I mean, I'm an extrovert. Yeah. So I'll always prefer in- person event. 

(32:06) Jeremy Au: I'm an exhausted extrovert, so I 

(32:08) Maria Li: have to do this, but I hate it. 

(32:09) Jeremy Au: After I'm extroverted, I need to go home and take a rest. Fair enough. So, yeah. 

(32:13) Maria Li: I'm an extrovert. I like in- person events. I think there's a certain buzz and energy and like just, you know, I talk faster than I type, you know? And so, like there's, it's just easier for me to, to really exchange ideas and have a proper dialogue in person. 

(32:26) It was probably been two, maybe almost three years since we hosted a webinar. But like, I don't really see people signing up for that anymore. And so, I think what we've been, and some people will still come to us because of course, in Southeast Asia it's very fragmented. So, some of our partners will come to us, be like, 'Hey, can we host a webinar?'

(32:40) Because I wanna reach the entire Ian region, but obviously I don't wanna go to every single country in person. And I really get that. But you know, when was the last time you signed up for a webinar? Like on a personal, like, no, right? So, people aren't doing that anymore. But in the same time, in the, since COVID, at least, like obviously TikToks been on the rise, like, like social (33:00) media consumption is still

(33:01) on the rise. And so it's also been, so it's like, okay, if it's like logistically or operationally impossible to do a bunch of in-person events then you do have to think about what's the best way to kind of like distribute the message in a digital way. I don't think it's a virtual event, but I do think there are other ways to, to get there.

(33:17) Like through other content mechanisms. Yeah. Yeah. 

(33:21) Jeremy Au: I think the webinar is like the least fun version of all the social versions. 

(33:26) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(33:27) Jeremy Au: But it is also the worst version of all the work stuff. So, I mean by that is like at work, you know, you have to do Zoom calls anyway. Yeah. You got, so you're already doing mini webinars.

(33:36) Yeah, yeah. All the time anyway. Yeah. So, by the time you do a social event or quasi work event, you just wanna go in person. I think there's weird, I don't know. There's a weird, 

(33:44) Maria Li: yeah. I feel like it's like a barbell kind of situation, right? Right. So. 

(33:48) Jeremy Au: But let's talk about the barbell from your perspective, right? Does that mean that you think there's gonna be some stuff that's gonna be super digital and then you gotta focus on the in-person events? You gotta make them bigger and splashier, is that what you mean by the barbell from your perspective?

(33:59) Maria Li: I kind of (34:00) think so. So, I think it's either like you're creating digital content, which obviously it's great because it can scale, you know, like you can reach a lot of people at once. But obviously, there's a lot of content on the internet, so it's also really being able to cut through the noise, you know, deliver real insights, have an audience that really cares and connects with you.

(34:16) Historically, I feel like that's always been more top of the funnel, but I think that's not the case anymore. People are just like completely living in that digital content world. And then the in-person events, cooler, more interesting, better value for sure.

(34:28) And so, I think what we are also doing is, I think for a while, everyone, like, oh, last year we had 1000 people, so this year we have 2000 people. Now we have 3000 people. But there's a limit to that. And there's a limit in terms of how big an event

(34:41) can be before you start to lose some of that. And so, for us it's really just right sizing the event to the goal and the objective of that particular audience, right? Like if you're telling me it's a C-level event, it's obviously gonna be a lot tighter and smaller because you want those C- levels to actually have enough time to properly network versus like our Tech in Asia conference.

(34:59) (35:00) Traditionally, like 5,000 people ish. We're not going any bigger than that. It's just like, it doesn't create better networking opportunities. In fact, people will write in and be like, it was amazing. I met so many amazing people, but it was like very overwhelming trying to try to cram it all in within two days.

(35:13) So, yeah, I mean, I think that's the barbell aspect of it. 

(35:16) Jeremy Au: I mean, I think that's a tricky part, right? Because, you know, I think the barbell always feels like, to me, at least, it reminds me of the entertainment world, right? Yeah. It's like, you know, the barbell is like, you have on one end you have like Marvel.

(35:27) Maria Li: Okay. You know, 

(35:28) Jeremy Au: like these blockbusters, like everyone must go to," If you don't go, you're loser." Pretty much dynamic. And after that is the, I don't know, I'm gonna say like Netflix, you know, just like a long tail, you know? But is this something for everybody kind of dynamic, right? 

(35:41) And do you think that's happening in the media side as well? Or, you know, how do you think about the barbell? Yeah, 

(35:47) Maria Li: in terms of like, are people congregating around? specific topics that they're interested in, or, sorry, what do you mean? No, 

(35:55) Jeremy Au: I'm just speculating because it feels like, to me, I feel like there's this world where the concept of (36:00) entertainment, news and content is interesting

(36:02) where I think on one end, I think maybe the version of that is all becoming shot form, you know? Oh, 

(36:06) Maria Li: okay. Like 

(36:06) Jeremy Au: one end, the bar now is like, you know, everything is in ten second to 42nd. You know, a recipes at 40 seconds now, you know, on a YouTube shot for example. Right? Yeah. And this news or information that's like bite-size, right?

(36:19) And then there's a bunch of stuff that's super long form, right? Right. You know, super deep and, 

(36:23) Maria Li: yeah, 

(36:23) Jeremy Au: pretty random actually. Sometimes it's like, it's like five hour 

(36:26) Maria Li: acquired episodes. Yeah, exactly right? 

(36:28) Jeremy Au: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like super esoteric. Super personalized, maybe not. It is Socratic is probably the word,

(36:34) right? It's like very opinionated. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's Jordan Peterson or 

(36:37) Maria Li: Yeah. You 

(36:38) Jeremy Au: know Huberman? Yeah. You know, you know. I, I just, I don't know how you feel about, do you see that happening or is it just, I'm just making things out in my head. Yeah. 

(36:45) Maria Li: Yeah. But you know, I think that, I think that that is the container that the message comes through, but I think people, and you will get a, people who self-select based off of, like, some people will just, they love a ten- second video of (37:00) clip versus like a really in- depth premium content piece, or like a

(37:03) five- hour episode. And, but I think that, so, people will self select based on like the format and the channel that they wanna hear from. But I actually think the main thing is still that messaging. And so I don't, I guess I would separate like form from function a little bit, right? Which is, you know, I think the, the Huberman or whatever, it's because they actually care about what that guy has to say, the Joe Rogans, right?

(37:24) Like they care about what those people have to say. And then the content itself, or the channel itself, and the format itself is just like a, it's a byproduct, right? Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. And so to me, if we think about like, okay, tech in Asia has a message we wanna get out, I think that message, as long as we're really clear on what that message is, my goal would be to put it into as many different containers and as many different formats as possible so that the, that format thing doesn't become a blocker, 

(37:53) Jeremy Au: right?

(37:53) Maria Li: For anybody who's trying to hear the message. 

(37:55) Jeremy Au: I think that's really interesting, right? Because you know, that's really the tricky (38:00) part about it is like, it's very different. 'Cause historically, I don't know a newspaper, you know? 

(38:04) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(38:04) Jeremy Au: Strange times, where can, I write. 

(38:07) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(38:07) Jeremy Au: And that's about reads. Yeah.

(38:08) Right, you know? And now what you're saying is AI writes or something like that. Yeah. And then it becomes a LinkedIn article, long form video, a podcast, you know, so many different containers you could be in, right? 

(38:19) Maria Li: I mean, I guess this is how I view, which is just like you, I'm thinking about like, what am I trying to do?

(38:24) And I think we're trying to get ideas across. But I don't think we're trying to get ten second videos across, you know, like we're not talkers. Like that's not the, I don't define myself by the channel that I run on, but I define us by like, you know, what we're trying to create and which is why actually to your AI question earlier, I was like, our goal is to

(38:41) build, serve agents, second startup community, not to stay just the media publication. And so, that gives us a little bit more mental flexibility in how we approach the problem. I think if you did say I'm a talker, then okay. Then you work within those constraints. You define the problem a little bit more narrowly, which means that, your solutions set would necessarily have to come out of that.

(38:57) And so, yeah, I guess. it goes back to (39:00) problem definition. you can define it however you want. Huberman probably feels like, this is the best way he can get out his message or he just loves this is how he talks and lives. And so, it's the most natural form for him.

(39:10) But you know, like even these crazy long podcasts or whatever, they always have that amplification and distribution and promotional aspect to it in which they try to force fit a little bit and then, you know, bring people in to the, to the main meal, if you will. So, I don't know. 

(39:24) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I mean, I guess if it was a TikTok that does tech in Asia rather than tech in Asia, that does TikTok.

(39:30) Maria Li: Yes, exactly. It'd be quite 

(39:31) Jeremy Au: different, right? Exactly. One is, you know, you're taking list of content, you're putting the TikTok is there, I guess a TikTok is doing tech in Asia, would it? I don't know, dance and sing about tech in Asia. Goodness. So, you know, I'm just, 

(39:43) Maria Li: so, TikTok illiterate that like, yeah. Are you in TikTok?

(39:46) Do you like it? I, 

(39:47) Jeremy Au: I am in TikTok and I find I spend 

(39:49) Maria Li: It's good for you. 

(39:50) Jeremy Au: I wouldn't say it's good for me. 

(39:51) Maria Li: Yeah. But you like, you, you enjoy it as a, as a platform. 

(39:55) Jeremy Au: I think the algorithm does kind of like service my. One (40:00) hour version myself. Right. But I do find that at the end of the day, I don't feel like I've benefited 

(40:05) from all that time with TikTok. 

(40:06) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(40:06) Jeremy Au: And so, I feel like that's one of my struggles is, I think I'm somebody who produces on TikTok. Yeah. For the Brave Podcast, evolve, I'm someone who's a creator, so obviously I need to watch some of the stuff, the car get a sense of, Yeah, what's going on in terms of taste.

(40:20) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(40:20) Jeremy Au: But I really don't wanna become a fullblown consumer, if that makes sense. so, it's kind of an interesting piece where it's like, I wanna produce for it, but I don't wanna consume too much of it. 

(40:27) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(40:27) Jeremy Au: And I think, you know, that brings another topic is like, you know, we're both parrots, right?

(40:31) Yeah. So, oh yeah. You have a one and 3-year-old. I have a four and 2-year-old. It's kind of interesting because that generation Alpha. . And you know, I, I think, I don't know, maybe it was like writing a newspaper. I'll be proud to give them a newspaper. Yeah, yeah. You know, 

(40:42) Maria Li: like what daddy did. Yeah.

(40:44) Jeremy Au: And then now I'm like, oh, I played all these short and it's like, hey. Yeah, here's TikTok. Yeah. I'll be like, eh, maybe you shouldn't be watching too much TikTok as a kid, right? Yeah. And I think there's something that has been a challenge, so I'm just kind of curious, how do you feel about that? How are you raising your kids on, I don't 

(40:58) Maria Li: know, 

(40:58) Jeremy Au: screens?

(40:59) Or is there (41:00) any kind of point of view on that, et cetera? Yeah. 

(41:01) Maria Li: Yes. I mean, we don't have like a very strict and defined philosophy when it comes to screens. Yeah. I mean, the main thing is like when we travel, it's a free for all. Like the 1-year-old and three, you're like, you can do whatever you want when we're on a plane.

(41:12) Like just, yeah, stay quiet. But no, I mean, of course at home we try to limit screen time. When we do watch screens, it tends to be, you know, there, there are all these like slow animation shows. And so, we try to pick some of those, of course there's like an occasional PAW patrol in there.

(41:25) You can't like have two boys. You can't really avoid it. So, we try to control screens and especially with a 3-year-old where, you know, we're explaining it's like a limited thing, social media. At this point I'm like kind of like a straight no. Yeah. Like I don't plan on letting my kids touch social media until.

(41:40) I don't know, 14, 15. I don't know if I can hold to that so 

(41:43) Jeremy Au: far in the future. I know, 

(41:45) Maria Li: I know. 

(41:45) Jeremy Au: they're like 14 years old and they don't have, social media. It's the goal. 

(41:49) Maria Li: Did you read The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Hay?

(41:51) Jeremy Au: I've read the summary of it. Okay. I haven't read the full book, but you should explain the thesis Right. So 

(41:55) Maria Li: the Anxious Generation is all about, . Jonathan Hay, he's a researcher and a (42:00) professor and he basically researched the effect of social media on kids. And I was actually very nervous when I first picked up the book.

(42:06) I'm like, oh my God, it's gonna tell us how, like we need to keep our kids off of all. But actually, I thought the final message was quite, quite moderate. .You know, and maybe even attainable. So, his main point is like, it's not screen time that's necessarily terrible. It's social media.

(42:19) And the reason social media is bad is because for all the reasons we know, it creates like these false senses of like what everybody else is doing. Everyone's else is living their best life. And it's particularly damaging to adolescent and pre-adolescent girls. Mm. And so, his point was like, okay, keep your kids off of social media for as long as possible.

(42:36) Screen time and moderate doses is like totally fine. Mm. And then, you know, and then also if you're gonna do screen time, try to make it a little bit more interactive so that it's not just like , Mm, straight screen, content consumption. And I was like, okay, that seems okay,

(42:50) right? And so, that's kind of the where we're at, which is we do screen time and limited amounts. Like my kids are too young to even think about social media. So I think that's a good thing. And that's the (43:00) goal to, to keep it. And I think, I mean, but then I think like with chat GPT, with some of the voice functions that are coming into the LLMs, I'm like, okay, maybe this is a good way to do like more conversational Chinese to teach my kid Chinese.

(43:12) And like, so, we haven't started doing that yet, but that's something there. Tech, all tech should be a tool, right? And so if it serves a purpose that you're trying to create anyways, then I think that's a good thing. Chat, GPT can be a Chinese tutor instead of paying an actual person.

(43:26) I'm like, okay, maybe that's not terrible. 'Cause on access, you know, on demand, whatever, easy access. Yeah. I don't have like a very deep philosophy on it, but we're just trying our best. Right? Yeah. 

(43:36) Jeremy Au: I mean, I'm there in the same boat. I think the research is kind of still early as well. I think, well, I mean, we literally only just invented technology for our kids to grow up in.

(43:44) Yes, I know. So, our kids are the Guinea pigs. I think maybe on my side, probably lean a little bit more on the, I wouldn't say conservative end. Yeah. I mean, I said flights and they gotta use their machine, you know? 

(43:53) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(43:53) Jeremy Au: Go ahead. You know, whatever I sound, here's 

(43:55) Maria Li: your headphones. Yeah. 

(43:56) Jeremy Au: So I'm, I mean, that

(43:57) camp as well. It's just that I think for me, (44:00) yeah, I think I have two young girls and so I'm just kind of curious in my head like, 

(44:02) Maria Li: oh, I think you need to be more careful. 

(44:04) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Yeah. So, inside my head I'm just like, It's not that I'm against technology, it's just that I don't know what I'll do.

(44:09) Maria Li: Yeah. 

(44:09) Jeremy Au: So it's kind of like, eh, I mean, they use so much technology in their life anyway. I mean, they're being driven around in cars. They go to school, they go to the museum. So, I think there's much technology around them anyway. So, what's the point of adding this extra layer of uncertainty. Yeah.

(44:24) And I'm, you know, it's not as if they're not gonna catch up on all the technology. Yes, totally. One wants to become teenagers and 

(44:29) Maria Li: totally, 

(44:29) Jeremy Au: you know, hate dad, like I know. Oh, my dad, so cool. He is on Instagram. Yeah, I know, 

(44:34) Maria Li: I know. Well, so then the book specifically talks about like Okay, so it's particularly damaging to girls because, you know, there's a chemical changes that are happening around adolescent, so like, if you can avoid social media accounts for them until they're 15. Some of their brains are a lot better formed at that point. And so it becomes a lot less damaging,. Right. And I think like regulation is so tricky, right.

(44:54) Because you know, when this technology first, it's not very old technology. Right? Yeah. When technology first came out, everyone's like, you (45:00) don't know any better. So my kids are the Guinea pigs. Yeah. And then, but now you kind of know and so you can fight back against it. Yeah. Like you put up guardrails and you know, it's like there are groups of parents who are like, okay, you know, if your friends.

(45:11) If the friend group, no one in the friend group has Instagram or TikTok. It's a lot less weird if you don't have it. And so you have to like find these pockets of like-minded people, fellow Luddites if you will, and be like, okay, we are gonna be the Luddites here and we will not allow our children to be shamed by this.

(45:28) Yes. 

(45:28) Jeremy Au: And it's interesting because we are in tech. 

(45:30) Maria Li: Yes. we are 

(45:31) Jeremy Au: creating content. we're 

(45:32) Maria Li: like social media and we are parents 

(45:34) Jeremy Au: and we don't want our kids to take too much of it. 

(45:36) Maria Li: I just view our tech as like, you know, B2B Tech. I mean, 

(45:39) Jeremy Au: of course at some level we're B2B, we're working on focusing on professionals.

(45:43) Maria Li: It's true. Exactly. We're not marketing the 

(45:45) Jeremy Au: kids, you know? Exactly. So, you know. but it is interesting to see that dynamic where it's like, I think a lot of tech professionals Feel conflicted because of that. Right? 'cause there's so many friends, my friends who are parents and they're working in Facebook, Google, or, you know, it's just like part of this entire tech (46:00) industry.

(46:00) It's kind of like, wow we love technology in our work and we use every day in our lives as magic. And it's gonna transform the world. And we don't know how to introduce it to our kids in a way that makes sense. How do we titrate that dose? In a way that makes sense for them. Right? I 

(46:11) Maria Li: know.

(46:11) But I mean, in my view, there's different categories of tech, right? There's clearly productive technology. So like when it comes to ai, I don't really stress as much I think I could see myself, when my kids reach like 6, 7, 8, using AI to help to teach them AI so that they're gonna be in the AI world anyway, so that's almost something that wouldn't.

(46:28) Be a terrible thing for them to learn early on. That's a productive technology versus social media, which I don't think is truly that productive. it's kind of like a fun, useless technology and it's like, okay, so you don't need that. So, you also have to distinguish between what you're learning and what you're not learning.

(46:43) Actually, I will say sometimes we open up, the old school MS paint, there are certain websites that have recreated the MS paint, and sometimes we do let our 3-year-old Paint around on laptop because he's just learning how to move a mouse and, that doesn't feel like it's that damaging.

(46:55) That's, I wouldn't call it productive tech, but it's like, Okay. Versus things that I think (47:00) are a little bit more destructive and Yeah. So, it's not all tech, right? It's just you have to be able to pick and choose what, what you think will actually serve the kid and, and, um. I mean, I don't have like an Apple Vision Pro, but that's probably not something I would give to my kid right now.

(47:13) Jeremy Au: Oh yeah. It's like instead of daycare, I was like, here's an Apple vision pro. 

(47:16) Maria Li: Yeah. Math probably me, you know, learning how to ask good prompts. Like I feel like that could only serve them well when they're 25 or 30 or, you know, like Yeah. Because that's gonna be important. 

(47:28) Jeremy Au: on that note, to wrap things up, you know, any advice you would give to, you know, Other tech parents out there. 

(47:34) Maria Li: You know, I think technology is agnostic, right? It's really how you use technology, right. And, I've been getting more into the climate tech space specifically, and I think it's super interesting because like on the one hand, technology is one of the things that have gotten us into

(47:47) the climate crisis, I think we're now in. And then honestly, AI and the use of data centers and the water and the power usage and energy usage is not great. But the same time, it's like, okay, then the way we kind of innovate our way out of this is also through (48:00) technology. And so, you know, technology is what it is.

(48:03) It's just a tool. It's really all about how you use it, how you wanna apply it in your life, and it's all about you making sure that you're using the tool as opposed to technology using you. . And I think that's probably where, if you think about. Facebook's growth model, which was like utilizing the user data without them even really knowing and then being able to build their marketing machines off of that.

(48:20) I'm like, that is an instance where I think technology use us unwittingly. And so I just, you know, do your, do your due diligence, set your own ground rules, and, and yeah, and just remember to make sure that you stay in control of the technology. 

(48:34) Jeremy Au: Awesome. Well, I think that's really good advice. On that note, thank you so much for coming and sharing a point of view.

(48:39) Maria Li: Yeah, thanks. This was fun. It was nice. I like it in person for an exhausted extrovert. 

(48:44) Jeremy Au: I know. Okay, great.