Demographic Collapse, Broken Visas & Why Global Talent Is Rerouting to Southeast Asia – E594

"Talent is bell-curved, right? In the sense that from people who are super good in this one domain to people who are not good in this domain. So Jeremy is horrible at piano, but he's probably good at podcasting in the Southeast Asia context. Not world-class. And that's the talent piece, which is like, I'm on one side for this one skill. And then we talk about it, which is there are certain hubs, right? Talent vortexes that suck in talent. And so if you wanted to be the best at, I'm just example, acting, you probably want to go to Hollywood. And there's some local regional hubs like Bollywood. Obviously there's the Chinese who have their own Hong Kong nexus for acting, et cetera. So there's these pockets for their own local markets, but Hollywood is that talent vortex for acting talent." - Jeremy Au, Host of BRAVE Southeast Asia Tech Podcast

"I read a very interesting article, I don't know if it was The Economist or The Atlantic, that was basically saying the decline in fertility globally is actually driven by smartphones. So they basically said, you know, people have all these other things like enough childcare, not enough, you know, all this other stuff. But they said if you map it, right, you know, people always like to hold up Scandinavia as like a place that has really good childcare and child leave policies. But even in Scandinavia, fertility rate is going down. And so they made the argument that it's actually like, if you map smartphone penetration, that's how you see the fertility rates correlating and that the places with the highest fertility have the lowest smartphone penetration." - Shiyan Koh, Managing Partner at Hustle Fund 

"You know, there's this feeder program, which is like, you know, in undergrad, you wanted to be a bio scientist and then suddenly you started zooming in to be like, I want to do like longevity and aging. And then you do your, then you did your master's, then you go do your PhD at Harvard. And so there's this massive suction effect. Where Harvard had these like rock star professors that were globally known. And then they got this incredible bench of like super hungry, super ambitious, super smart. And then people, and then money comes in and it's like, you know what? You know, like you did this, you did that. Why don't we do the next thing on top of that, right? And then those labs were spitting out patents, startups, spinoffs." - Jeremy Au, Host of BRAVE Southeast Asia Tech Podcast

Shiyan Koh, Managing Partner at Hustle Fund, joins Jeremy Au to examine how geopolitical shifts, demographic decline, and education policy are reshaping global talent and innovation flows. They explore Japan and Korea’s push into Southeast Asia, the unexpected impact of smartphone culture on fertility, and how political actions in the US are disrupting the university pipeline and research ecosystems. They also critique bureaucratic inefficiencies in tech transfer and reflect on assimilation policies, academic flywheels, and the cultural nuances behind talent mobility.

06:57 Japan and Korea face demographic urgency: Fertility rates in South Korea have dropped from 800,000 births in the 1980s to just over 200,000 in recent years. Corporate leaders are looking to expand into Southeast Asia through joint ventures and partnerships, viewing Indonesia, Thailand, and the Philippines as key markets.

12:25 Smartphones may be suppressing fertility: Shiyan references an article arguing that smartphone penetration is highly correlated with falling fertility rates. Despite strong family policies in Scandinavia, birth rates continue to decline. The theory suggests that digital bubbles reduce real-life interaction and desire to form relationships.

18:21 Immigration and assimilation face friction: The US excels at integrating newcomers through education and culture, but places like Singapore struggle due to uncertain work visa policies. Students who attend local universities often don’t know if they can stay, making long-term integration difficult.

27:41 Political interference weakens academia: Harvard has faced withdrawal of federal research grants, student visa suspensions, and potential taxation of endowments. Shiyan compares it to a "cultural revolution" for US academia, where the cancellation of research funding disrupts entire projects and damages long-term scientific work.

38:44 Academic tech transfer often fails: Jeremy critiques the inefficiency of Asian university IP portals. Unlike MIT's open-access system, some institutions limit what patents are visible and make it hard to search or filter. Feedback on the issue was ignored, revealing a culture of bureaucratic avoidance that blocks commercialization.

Jeremy Au (01:00)

Hey, Shiyan! How's life? I heard you were in Japan and Korea.

Shiyan Koh (01:02)

I was. Look at my, my new I'm a new fan of the Yokohama DeNA BayStars. Bay Stars. I got to watch a Japanese baseball game. I was totally different from an American baseball game.

Jeremy Au (01:10)

B is what B is. Yes. I see it as B and a star. Yeah, how's that? How is it different? I mean, I think they're all Japanese.

Shiyan Koh (01:23)

Well, no, no. There are American players.  But they're much more like coordinated and unified in their chanting. That sounds very So, every player has their own chant. So, instead of having a walk-off song when they're batting, you you're like, play the music, they have their own personalized chant. And it's displayed on the billboard so that everyone in the stadium can see and chant in unison. Obviously, the food is better because they have like ramen and udon and all those sorts of things. And Yokohama, I guess, has the Japan's largest Chinatown. So, their stadium food or like, their like signature stadium food is like super big.

Jeremy Au (02:00)

Those meatballs, yeah.

Shiyan Koh (02:03)

But they still also have hot dogs and nachos, and like other American-ish things. And they have their own craft beer alongside Asahi and whatnot. So, it was cool. They were playing the Yakult Swallows.

Jeremy Au (02:15)

Wait, Yakult, the yogurt drink for kids?

Shiyan Koh (02:17)

Yes. So each team, I think all, there's 12 teams in the league. Each team is sponsored by a company except for one. Maybe it's Hiroshima. I can't remember. But yeah, so Yokohama DeNA, the gaming company, Yakult, the drink swallows.

Jeremy Au (02:33)

Is that a pardon mic? You swallow Yakult. so...

Shiyan Koh (02:35)

No, The birds, the birds. The birds? Yeah, it's a, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, and then the opposing team, like the visiting team, they had their own section in the bleachers. They were super coordinated. They all wore, like their color is like, I guess it was like navy blue and this sort of like lime green. It was raining. So, all of their like, I don't know, spirit leaders were all wearing these like lime green raincoats so you could see them very clearly, and they were like leading the chant, had a drum, the noisemakers. It was very cool. Yeah, and yeah, It's, it's also like very cute. You know a lot of Japanese things are cute. So like they're one of their mascots for the Yokohama team was like a hamster, because hamster sounds like BayStars.

Shiyan Koh (03:22)

waddles around is very cute. No, no, no. There is a team that has dragons, but this one was a, it was very cute. Yeah, it was very adorable. had Cheerleaders come out and like dance periodically. So you know, it was very enjoyable.

Jeremy Au (03:24)

Like a dragon? ⁓ The hamster. Yeah, amazing. And I guess you were there because what you were talking to the founders and LPs

Shiyan Koh (03:43)

Yeah, we're raising our fourth fund, so we're talking to current and potential future LPs and of course, some founders along the way. And so, I think it's also just nice to get a feel for the ecosystems. You know, it's always great to be in the US. I think, you can really feel the pulse and the energy. San Francisco is so bad guys. It never went away, right? What is it? Announcements of its demise were like greatly exaggerated.

Jeremy Au (04:07)

It's like the king is dead, long live the king.

Shiyan Koh (04:09)

Yeah, it's San Francisco has too much, I think, gravity to die, and so there is a lot of excitement there. I met with one of my founders. They are in like, an AI co-working space, but it's basically that someone who made some money, bought a building, and then rents it out to AI startups. But mostly, they also have a cool hangout. Right? And so there's a bunch of these all over the city and the energy is super good. So, like ton of optimism on the founder side.

Jeremy Au (04:28)

Yeah. 

Shiyan Koh (04:37)

I think on the allocator side, you know, a lot of the LPs are, 'oh my God, where are my returns? Where's my DPI?' Yeah, obviously, it's an asset class. So I learned about fun things like cannabis credit or other types of, you know, different types of income producing, cash generating types of things that allocators are looking at. But at the same time, I think, they all also like want to make sure they don't miss out on the AI wave. They still have an allocation. And so there's, you know,

Jeremy Au (04:44)

About the VC as a asset class?

Shiyan Koh (05:06)

they're still griping, but they're still going to deploy, but maybe they'll deploy to a smaller number of managers. And then for, I think, Japan and Korea mostly spoke to corporates. And so on the corporate side, they're interested in innovation. They want to bring it to their own companies. And then as you know, their demographics are declining. So, they're also interested in expanding to external markets, so there's a lot of conversation about how they expand beyond their domestic markets.

Jeremy Au (05:28)

A lot to unpack there. I think the first up of course, is maybe let's look at what LPs are thinking, right? Because I think a lot of news has happened over the past quarter. There was the tariffs. I think there was a little bit of a mini run on American treasuries by Japanese holders. I mean, I wouldn't call it a run, you know, at least it just raised, kind of spiked up and everyone got queasy, and then the tariffs kind of got paused, and then, the US courts ruled that they're not constitutional, and then now, it's back on again. So, a lot of variance. I mean, how are LPs thinking about allocation from a geographic perspective?

Shiyan Koh (06:01)

I mean, I think different LPs have different objectives, right? So I think American allocators, at least the ones I was talking to, tend to be much more financial in nature. And I think from that perspective, US central capital is probably the best performing geography. I don't think that changes. And they also tend to be American institutions, right? So, I think there's like a home bias on top of the fact that it actually is a very deep market that has produced returns. And it's more that like, you know, the 2021-22 period

sucked up, there's a bunch of liquidity and it hasn't come back out yet. So, they're kind of like, what's going on? I've got like 10 year funds that haven't returned money and how do I redeploy to new stuff? So, I don't think that there has been a ton of change in terms of the geo from an American allocators perspective. I think it's more about what is that allocation in the context of their full portfolio for VC versus other things that might have more near term cash generation. And I think, I would also say that that varies based on whether like you're a pension, you're an endowment.

you're a foundation, right? Like they all have different cash needs. And on the endowment side, I think there's all this conversation about whether they're going to be taxed at higher rates. And so, that changes the cash profile of what they're going to need as well. So, I think, that's all a bit like in flux. Right? I think on the Asian LP side, if you're talking to corporates, corporates don't just have financial goals, right? They also have like learning and innovation goals because they have operating businesses that they're trying to juice as well.

Jeremy Au (07:10)

Yeah.

Shiyan Koh (07:23)

And then on the family office side,  again, you have a different set of objectives, right? Where like, they don't necessarily need to allocate, right? They don't necessarily have an operating business that they need to feed. And so I think for them, they're much more risk off. 'Cause they're like, well, like you said, tariffs on, tariffs off, tariffs on, tariffs off. They're like, well, I don't know what's going to happen. Like, why don't I wait? What's the cost to me of waiting six to nine months to see how it shakes out before committing a lot.

Jeremy Au (07:44)

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. think that makes a lot of sense. And so I think it's interesting because now we're looking at it. It's almost like a grid, right? Yeah. Where's your HQ? Are you American headquarter? Are you Japanese headquarter? Are you Chinese headquarter? Which is, are you financially oriented? Are you wealth preservation oriented? Are you learning and development on this? So, that's like a tree by tree. We will draw magically like that.  You know, I think, obviously, and I think the trends within those tree by tree grid is like you said,

Jeremy Au (08:15)

If you don't have to invest in America, I think there's a bit of a risk off to see what's going on. But also, the uncertainty is not just about America, it's actually about global. So it's not a risk off for American assets, it's a risk off for, I think, all risky assets because of what we're seeing of the American trade policy driven perspective. And then, how do you think about it from the asset class perspective? So, do you think VC is an asset class that is getting painted with the same brush? Which is, it's a risky asset, It's low distribution proceeds, DPI.

Shiyan Koh (08:28)

Risk asset. I mean, I think VC has also evolved, right? Which is that if you think about the amount of money in the asset class today versus 20 years ago or 40 years ago when it started, it's like magnitude-ally so different. And so what you've seen is like, how do you even compare a $50 million fund doing pre-seed and seed to a $5 billion fund doing multi-stage? Like, those are fundamentally different instruments, right? But they're all lumped under this like VC idea. And so, I think you'll see also dispersion that way, which is like, if I'm saying I want like, the biggest sort of like multiples, it's probably going to be in smaller funds in earlier stage stuff. Right. But if I'm an institution that needs to deploy $1,500 million at a clip, I can't be investing $1,500 million our funds. And so I will like, accept basically like lower multiples but also maybe lower variance in order to be able to put more dollars to work, right? So I think there's that sort of also that dispersion within the asset class as a whole. And LPs are having that conversation, right? They're saying like, hey, I was promised this kind of return because it's VC, but what I'm actually seeing is kind of different. So how do I think about that in the context of my VC allocation?

Jeremy Au (09:55)

Yeah. I think, you know, it goes back to that VC's asset class becoming barbelled in a sense that I said one side is the mega core, multi-stage, billion dollar funds, multi-billion dollar. Billion is small.  small, And then they have a very strong, I would say pyramid or diamond shaped management structure of, you know, partners, general partners, partners, and supposed associates. And I think, you have on the other side of the barbells, like very

Shiyan Koh (10:06)

Multi-billion. All now.

Jeremy Au (10:22)

tight-focused teams that are just very focused on early-stage investing. So, those seems to be like the two ends and everything else seems to be like kind of like getting...

Shiyan Koh (10:29)

Yeah, and then you have specialist funds, right? So you have like, maybe you have your $500 million Fintech fund, healthcare fund, consumer fund.

Jeremy Au (10:36)

Yes. I think that's where the barbell, the middle of that is becoming super special.

Shiyan Koh (10:40)

Yeah, right? But you don't really have that generalist. Yeah. Right. So, it's kind of both ends of the thing, so I think that's that's probably an accurate characterization.

Jeremy Au (10:49)

Yeah. I think it's interesting because, you know, I think there's a lot of content that's like, in a lot of industries that are barbelled, right? I mean, I think for me, either way I think about it's like, even like the Hollywood industry hits, you know, the blockbusters is barbell, right? So you have these giant movies that have to be, you know, it's been, I don't know, Titanic, Avatar 2, Avatar 1. James Cameron really does that, kind of like the most expensive film ever built

of dynamic on one end of the scale. Now you have your A24, you know, specialization, tail-ish kind of like, you know? So, I think it's an interesting dynamic that's happening. It didn't seem to go away. I think it seemed to accelerate during COVID and then post-COVID it didn't unbarbelled itself.

Shiyan Koh (11:23)

Yeah. They return your funds. It'll take a while, right? Like, they're not gonna change. If you've already raised a couple billion dollars and you have a tenure fund, like, what's your incentive to change it?

Jeremy Au (11:40)

Yeah. exactly. It's going to take some time for that evolution to happen. And I think what is going to be interesting is also talking about Southeast Asia's geography. So in terms of a source of investment, I think you mentioned something, which is that you said that Japan and Korea are looking at Southeast Asia as a place to explore and expand. Could you share more about that?

Shiyan Koh (11:57)

I mean, I think they all want markets to expand into and they see, you know, the populations in Indonesia and Thailand and the Philippines and they're like, okay, how do we get over there? Right. So I think they're all interested in that. think the, mean, if you think about it, like Samsung has been in Vietnam for 20 years, right? Like I think something like 20 % of GDP, export GDP of Vietnam is Samsung. So it's not like a new thing, but I think for maybe smaller companies, who have historically been more focused domestically, they're looking at a shrinking domestic market due to demographic trends. And so they're like, well, we need to get out of our home countries, right? We need to figure out how to expand abroad. And so there's a lot of conversation about like, you know, potential JVs, what are ways that, you know, we can go overseas in a more like risk mitigated way? Are there interesting things that you're seeing there? And also like people are interested in like bringing new ideas in, right? Like, are there concepts that are working in other countries, whether it's US or Southeast Asia, are... wanting to expand it to Japan and Korea and other ways they can partner with those guys to, you know, tackle their home markets that they have an advantage in.

Jeremy Au (13:03)

Yeah, I it makes a lot of sense. I think Japan, Korea's total fertility rate is not high. think it's... Do you want to share more about that?

Shiyan Koh (13:09)

Shockingly low. I mean, I think South Korea is like 0.75. Yeah, which is like

Jeremy Au (13:15)

Well, know, Singapore is about 1.0.

Shiyan Koh (13:18)

Is it? I think it's 1.2?

Jeremy Au (13:19)

I think Japan's the 1.2 ⁓

Shiyan Koh (13:21)

Okay, yeah, but like I was talking to a guy, South Korean investor, and he was like, yeah, I was born in the 80s and there were 800,000 babies born when I was born that year. When I my first kid in like mid 2010s, there were 400,000, 400,000 plus babies born in South Korea. And then by the time he had his second kid, like five, six years later, there were 200,000 plus kids. Eight, four, two, I mean like, that's insane. And there are places that are not historically open to immigration, so they haven't been able to supplement that with immigrants, right?

Jeremy Au (13:50)

Yeah, I think it's a big challenge. And I was at a conference in Europe and they were very certain that China was facing a similar demographic time bomb. From their perspective, I mean, obviously, was a saying like China's also a single, used to be a one-shot policy. Reversal of that policy hasn't led to a significant baby bomb. And so from that perspective, they think that China is going to go the same route as Japan and Korea, the difference being that China will get old before it gets rich.

And so there was this interesting dynamic where I was in a conference and to be frank, was the only guy who looked Asian in this entire group. it was a good conference. It was just interesting just feeling like, you know, there's this, and then, you know, it's just interesting to hear that debate going on from a European lens actually. Because Europe also has a very low fertility. Got rich already for a long time off Asia and the rest of the world. you know, I mean, you know,

Shiyan Koh (14:35)

Yeah, but they got rich already.

Jeremy Au (14:43)

industrialization for many years as well. And so, you know, they got rich, right, before they got old and then now they're totally for terraria. I think Europe has a bit of an immigration component, obviously still debating immigration from the Middle East, from Africa.

Shiyan Koh (14:56)

I read a very interesting article, I don't know if it was The Economist or The Atlantic, that was basically saying the decline in fertility globally is actually driven by smartphones. So they basically said, you know, people have all these other things like, enough childcare, not enough, you know, all this other stuff. But they said if you map it, right, you know, people always like to hold up Scandinavia as like a place that has like really good childcare and child leave policies. But even in Scandinavia, fertility rate is going down. And so they made the argument that it's actually like, if you map smartphone penetration.

Jeremy Au (15:05)

My phone.

Shiyan Koh (15:24)

That's how you see the fertility rates correlating and that the places with the highest fertility have the lowest smartphone And the thesis is, I mean, I don't know what you think about this, is that basically smartphones allow men and women to live in bubbles and not interact in real life. And if they don't really interact in real life, how would they ever have children? Like they don't have a desire to like connect.

Jeremy Au (15:46)

I mean, you know, speaking as somebody who studied lot of econometrics, know, correlation is not causation. However, I do think it's a fair proxy that smartphones are, you know, it's as effective digital life, right? What is this socialization? Well, electronic socialization, is it the same as physical social isolation? Anyway, so there's some wordplay there. That being said, I think, you know, children are expensive, right? In a way that...

Shiyan Koh (15:58)

Social isolation.

Jeremy Au (16:11)

A lot of middle-class families want to raise them, right? So focus on loss of education, maximization, competition, optimization. There's a lot of those dynamics and that creates a lot of anxiety, I think, know, fertility is now a choice is no longer something that happens by accident. And so I think it's a, know, if somebody has a choice between saying like, you know, spending half a million dollars on raising a child versus being a dual income, no kid couple that could, you know.

half a million dollars you can buy a lot of Xboxes and PlayStations. You know, I'm just saying, like, you know, there's a lot of games, there's a lot of, you know, it's a substitute, right? What can you do with that life, right? I could live in a larger home, I could travel, have experiences. You know, I mean, if you're just making a choice, you know, you're making...

Shiyan Koh (16:52)

Yeah, I mean, the article was less about that economic trade-off and more about the ability to create, you know, like filter bubbles. Yeah. And I think it pointed to, if you look at the most recent US election and the voting by gen Z's cut by gender, young men went for Trump at a much higher rate than young women did. And so then there's this sort of like, what is in your idea? What is in your filter bubble about what you consider acceptable? And then when you...

encountered the opposite sex, you're like, ill-gross. Andrew Tate, you like Joe Rogan or whoever, right? Like it's sort of this separation.

Jeremy Au (17:29)

I think definitely there is an algorithmic bubble that happens, right? And it's true, right? I mean, if I look at my algorithm, they're very much like, okay, it feels like everybody's interested in the same things I am, which is like, you know, technology, startups, VC, Dungeons and Dragons, know, humor, comedy clips. You know, I'm just saying like, you know, and my wife's like algorithm is totally different, Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, total fertility rate is not easy. think soul right now is like 0.4.

Shiyan Koh (17:54)

That's insane.

Jeremy Au (17:54)

So it's like, basically like in every generation, you've got population in Seoul technically like shrinks by three quarters effectively, right? You know if you look at that. Of course, I think Seoul is acting as an immigration hub for the rest of Korea. you know, I think, but I think there's an interesting dynamic where like all these Asian tigers that used to be like the top of the town and, you know, people across the West would be like, wow, what can we learn from Asian tigers? Not all of us are becoming Asian elderly tigers.

like arthritis, tigers, right? Because yeah, again, you know, like also Taiwan as well is a super-aged society, Singapore as well, Thailand soon. So, and it's just interesting.

Shiyan Koh (18:33)

So what's your solution? Artificial wombs?

Jeremy Au (18:35)

You know, there are startups working on it. You know, as a person who's like into science fiction, that would totally be a solution from a state perspective.

Shiyan Koh (18:43)

Yeah, but somebody still has to, what, raise those children.

Jeremy Au (18:46)

State wants children. What I mean by that is like, if you're an individual person, and I say this as a dad of two kids, you know, there is a financial component and the sacrifice they're going to make.

Shiyan Koh (18:56)

So what, the state would raise legions of children?

Jeremy Au (18:59)

I'm just saying that the states don't like the fact that from their perspective, like, you know, it's like the Chinese one child policy, right? It's like four grandparents, two parents, one child, and then your dependency ratio goes crazy because now you're one child trying to fund the healthcare expenses of four people. So I think that is a pain that's not felt by, I'm just saying, because if you're the one child, you're going to be like, well, even supporting four grandparents and two parents, the last thing I want to do is add two kids. I'm just saying, because in that case, then you're literally supporting...

eight people, I'm just an example, right? So the one child might say, I don't want to have any children. So that pain is really being borne by the state, which is why I think a lot of states are already supporting families or trying to support families, not necessarily with artificial wombs, but with free childcare, with baby bonuses, with lower tax credits. So governments are already trying to subsidize economically this known cost. Paternity leave, paid maternity leave, these are all wealth transfers.

to lower the cost of that half a million dollar expenditure from the middle class. Or make it life easier for them, so forth. So, you know, if I was a guest, you know, would effectively be the same way that most, like China is subsidizing IVF, right? And even Singapore as well, you know, individual fertilization is subsidized for couples, right? To help them extend the fertility window. So you can imagine that if, you know, 10 or 20 or 30 years when artificial wombs become socially acceptable, then, you know...

It could be subsidized by the state for couples who want to use it.

Shiyan Koh (20:25)

Just you could recognize gay marriage. Let the gays have their kids

Jeremy Au (20:29)

Yeah, I think that's

that that is fair.

Shiyan Koh (20:32)

But yeah, it's a hard problem.

Jeremy Au (20:34)

Yeah, not an easy problem. I think that the problem is that obviously the alternative is if the local population is not having kids and those measures don't seem to be working, then it's immigration, which is another hot potato that everyone's kind of dealing with, right? mean, obviously Korea and Japan are less permeable to immigration, I would say, compared to Singapore. But even Singapore has its own domestic politics around immigration.

Shiyan Koh (20:57)

Yeah, I mean think it always comes down to like, fix pie versus growing pie, right? So if you think someone's coming to take your lunch, you do not like it. Yeah.

Jeremy Au (21:05)

Or if the pie seems to be shrinking or flat, then I don't want to share pie. But if my pie is growing, I feel generous and then it's easier to let somebody to come in. Right. And I think that's the little bit of that cash 22, which is the pie has to be growing for me to feel generous. More people to go to pie. And I think it can go the other way around, which is if that isn't, um, the right economic factors and blah, blah, blah, then the pie shrinking, they become even more. Uh, yeah. And then.

Shiyan Koh (21:19)

You need more people to try.

Jeremy Au (21:32)

It gets, and then the pie continues to shrink further and then, and then it gets harder and harder to.

Shiyan Koh (21:37)

But I mean, think this is one of those things where, like, the US is really good at assimilation.

Jeremy Au (21:41)

That's right. mean, like you said, so many founders in Southeast Asia, we talked about past podcasts, would like to go to America, Silicon Valley.

Shiyan Koh (21:48)

Yeah. And then assimilate, right? And so people are educated there, and then they wind up staying, and then they assimilate, right? And so within one and a half generations, basically, they become Americans. And so I think that's something like we probably need to think about more explicitly in Singapore is how do we assimilate people?

Jeremy Au (22:03)

I just heard a recent person, he was sharing a pretty good piece of feedback and his perspective was like, there's a big difference, which is that in, first of all, you know, the people who want to move when they go to college, just a good prime window for assimilation integration, right? Because people are saying, I want to move to this place and I just don't want to study there for four years, but I might want to live and work there as well. And so many people want to go to America and they go to university and they know that they have, you know, one to three years of

work visa guaranteed studying in America. But what this person was sharing was that a lot of people think about Singapore, they want to study there, but the problem and tricky part that they know is that work visa is not guaranteed. Yeah. Just because you're working. what now to be fair is this means that after university, then you have to apply for jobs and then you get employment pass and then it should be a bit easier because you studied. Yeah. But all of that is pretty invisible to both, think the pre-university student making a decision about.

choosing a university and the parent who's sponsoring that. And it's also pretty invisible actually to employers as well, whether those EPs, is this because they actually studied local and Singapore as well? So that box creates uncertainty, which lowers the emission rate, but also lowers the, what was the word, the people who wanted to assimilate, right? Because you go to university and you're like, I might not be able to get a job here anyway. So why am I assimilating actually this?

Shiyan Koh (23:07)

are gonna happen.

admission rate.

Jeremy Au (23:25)

I'll end with my diaspora.

Shiyan Koh (23:27)

Yeah, that's true. But yeah, I mean, I there's also just like, what's the availability of jobs after, right? And like, is it more attractive than what's in my home country? Yeah, I want to like, stay and build. Yeah. And I think sometimes I think it's interesting, right? Do remember during COVID, they would report COVID cases by visa status. It was basically like citizens work passes, like EPs. And I was like, this is a really strange way to report infection.

Jeremy Au (23:45)

Don't remember that.

Shiyan Koh (23:54)

Like, what does their work status have to do with anything? Like, sometimes like the language of the state is alienating, which goes counter to the notion of assimilation.

Jeremy Au (24:03)

Yeah, exactly. And I think one tricky part is that I COVID made everybody kind of like focus on their own tribe, right? Their own family. Everybody had to stay home. And I think there was that big fear of the outsider. It was like the plague, right? During the time of the plague, you know, people would barricade their villages and you'd be like, you know, some people would come and be fleeing their town. Everybody's like, you know, stay out. Don't come to my, you know, village, you know, with your, you know, from the city, you're carrying the plague and stuff like that.

Shiyan Koh (24:31)

So yeah, think it's like, there are ways that we can be more deliberate about some of that stuff,

Jeremy Au (24:36)

Yeah, I think people want immigration and they want immigration to be graded and assimilated and for both sides I it makes sense. Because for somebody who's coming in, you want to feel welcomed and vice versa if you're there you want to be like, you you don't want to...

Shiyan Koh (24:49)

my god, have you applied for your NDP parade ticket yet? Pass, SingPass can apply for your NDP parade. Lottery, lottery for the ticket. I feel like that's like the greatest piece of assimilating. Yeah? Yeah. How can you not feel patriotic when you watch the parade? There was a time when people said.

Jeremy Au (24:52)

And I should go around.

And then the next 30 minutes is us singing songs.

Shiyan Koh (25:11)

Well, so I got married on the 4th of July and all the Americas were like, we bussed people between the venue and the hotel because we didn't want anyone to drive after drinking. And you're on the bus and all the Americans were singing these 4th of July like American songs. the Singaporeans were like, hey, we also can sing what? And they just started busting out like, you know, the 80s national day songs. what? And they like kept going. And Katharine was like,

Why does everyone know these songs? like, how many of these songs are there? I was like, little do you know. They used to take over the airwaves for the month prior to National Day and all the ads. the ad slots were being filled with that year's song?

Jeremy Au (25:45)

government funded, government curated, airwaves slots, teams for the year. Speaking about visas as well, think we had the Harvard is getting hammered by the current US administration. Speaking about visas, think all the visas, student visas for international students, boss flux, trend change, transformation.

Shiyan Koh (26:04)

are impossible.

Yeah, I mean, I think at first it was just Harvard doesn't get international students. But the most recent thing is that Marco Rubio instructed all US embassies to stop interviews for student visas.

Jeremy Au (26:21)

Yeah, supposedly to help them upgrade their screening processes and so forth. And I've heard through my extended network that this wave of students that was supposed to start school in August, they're all panicking right now because they don't have visas.

Shiyan Koh (26:37)

And they already accepted their slot, right? So it's not like they can go back to the other school like, Cambridge, sorry, I declined you. Actually, can I come now? No, because they already gave their slot to somebody else too, right? I mean, it's kind of a shit show. I don't know what's going to happen to these kids.

Jeremy Au (26:50)

Yeah, well, hopefully, you know, hopefully one is, you know, the interviews pick up and maybe everybody makes it to school on time. That's one thing too. think we also know that a of universities have started sending offers. Uh, the Hong Kong, UST, HKUST sent out offers to every Harvard student that they say, if you want, if you go to Harvard, let you come in. think NUS, National University of Singapore just came out two days ago saying that if you were like in a top.

Shiyan Koh (27:11)

to come.

Jeremy Au (27:18)

I think 20, I think X number of universities, you pretty much get an accepted offer at National University of Singapore. So I think there's a scramble. ⁓

Shiyan Koh (27:26)

Well

yeah, because you weren't planning to take a gap year, right? You were totally planning to start your college career.

Jeremy Au (27:31)

Yeah exactly I was like, I'm going to California, I'm going to like, I'm going to talk about Flashback to Me,  enjoy Sunshine, and American football, and American hot dogs.

Shiyan Koh (27:39)

American hot dogs are disgusting.

Jeremy Au (27:41)

It's like a dream come true when I got the Harvard offer letter. No, it wasn't like a paper letter. I was talking on my phone. I was in bed. I saw my email. I saw a notification. I logged into the portal. I jumped out of bed. I was like, oh my gosh. So I was happy, right?

Shiyan Koh (27:47)

I was on my phone. You logged in.

But I mean, I think they're assaulting on all fronts, right? So like first there was like the withdrawal of federal grants, which has a huge impact on the research population. Then there was the international student thing. And then of course, it's the tax thing, which is like most universities in the US operate as nonprofits. If they were to raise the tax rate on their endowments, that would be a significant hit to the operating income as well.

Jeremy Au (28:18)

I mean, I think that that's a tricky dynamic, right? Because I think on the science part is, these science contracts is not as if it was like free money to Harvard, right? These are literally, you know, all the scientists basically write bids effectively for work to be sponsored or paid for. It's basically an... Yeah, it's a grand proposal and the government says, this is some good science that we want to fund because there's going to be some ROI to the government. And then suddenly you're cancelling that funding midstream.

Shiyan Koh (28:34)

It's a grant proposal.

Jeremy Au (28:43)

It's not as if these things are like computer programs that can pause and then you can come back to it in three years when it's the problem to solve, right? These are like,

You know, medium growing, like archaeological studies and you know, like these are things that once you stop, which is, you've actually this happened, the research, you can't bring them back. You know, there's a huge cost to stop it. And it's a huge cost to wind it back up if it ever comes back up again. So it's kind of weird because it's kind of like, you it's like, you're just deleting or like there's a whole wave of clinical healthcare, basic art.

Shiyan Koh (29:14)

This is America's Cultural Revolution.

Jeremy Au (29:16)

That's a big phrase. So you're saying it's similar to the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but in America.

Shiyan Koh (29:22)

You're like basically saying, all you, intelligentsia. They said we're gonna reallocate the money to trade schools. I mean, so I don't know. I think it's like a, it's a very, it's a very shocking thing. And then I think also like the premise for them doing it to Harvard is this like anti-Semitic accusation that they haven't done enough to protect Jewish students. And that's why they need to be more involved in Harvard. And it's like, well, you just canceled student visas for everybody. How does that work?

Jeremy Au (29:48)

It's interesting because the leader of Harvard is Alan Garber and he's actually Jewish, actually. So it's kind of an interesting dynamic where he's like trying to help, you know, obviously figure out how to address those concerns, but also like, you know, survive all the funding being canceled, the visas being canceled, the status being put at risk, other federal contracts being canceled. That's a lot, I think, for Harvard to go through. But it's interesting because he mentioned the word cultural revolution.

Well, maybe it's a lighter version of it. I mean, the Chinese Cultural Revolution was like seriously rough, mean, Xi Jinping, you know, was sent to the countryside for a cultural revolution. was reading a recent thing, actually far worse than that. was actually, you know, his father was like seen as, you know, unreliable. And so his father was, you know, basically imprisoned or, you know, kind of like being attacked. Then his

Shiyan Koh (30:22)

sad for the countryside.

Jeremy Au (30:39)

wife and children had to denounce the father and know Xi Jinping was in jail and then he escaped from jail and then he ran to his mom and then his mom reported him to the police because she was scared that you know she'd be in deep trouble if you they found out that her son came to him and then he had to like flee his mom that's so intense right so I'm just saying like

Shiyan Koh (30:58)

That's so intense.

Yeah, okay. you know, maybe that's like a bit of hyperbole, but I mean, I think the notion that you're going to erase like a whole class of people who are doing like critical basic research and applied research too, right? Like, mean, NOAA, they cut out like people who are like doing climate, like forecasting weather. Like this isn't just about you being a climate change denier. This is like, hey, like farmers need to know when the hurricane is coming type of situation, right? Like, I don't know. I mean, I think it's...

kind of like a, it seems super crazy to me.

Jeremy Au (31:31)

Yeah, I mean, I see it and yet, you know, if you think about it from a swing state perspective, know, Harvard's far away, you know, it's in Boston, it's on the East Coast.

Shiyan Koh (31:40)

But I think so that's an interesting thing, right? Because like we talk about swing states like, like all the people in the middle voted red and all the people on the coast voted blue. But like when you actually look at it, that's not true, right? Every state is sort of like 50 50. Right. But the middle states are maybe like more red than blue, but it's not like they're 90 percent red. Right. Like so basically like these impacts are going to be felt across the country. And then there's all the foregone research like you're not investing in vaccines now. So then what happens?

in five, ten years when the next outbreak comes.

Jeremy Au (32:09)

Well, it will probably be a Chinese pharma company. Because I think one of the things that we started seeing as well, as if you look at the economists and newspapers they're talking about, it's like a lot of American pharma companies are now licensing drugs and other pharma products from Chinese companies, which is a nice way to do risk. From their perspective, it's in China, the regulatory environment is a easier. There's a lot of basic scientists as a pharma folks. So they can do R &D.

And then by licensing the drug, the Chinese company gets American market entry, but without exposure to the national security. So I think it's a win-win for both sides for that. I think that's the tricky part they have there because there was just so many Chinese students that were studying.

Shiyan Koh (32:49)

I think they're the second biggest population in the US of foreign students after Indians.

Jeremy Au (32:54)

Yeah. And so I think the net effect of this thing is, which I think is intended from my perspective, is that I don't think a Chinese parent will feel comfortable sending a kid to America because they're worried that, you know, they may not get a work visa, they you know, not be able to finish their college. So all these, think a lot of these Chinese, I think for the next five years, I think a lot of Chinese, kids who are going to university are going to be like, okay, do I stay and study in Singapore or China or UK or Australia? I think that's going to be that kind of conversation.

Shiyan Koh (33:22)

it's scary. I can't even make a joke about it.

Jeremy Au (33:25)

I was actually reading this really interesting story about the Chinese Marie Curie of nuclear weapons. apparently there was obviously you watch Oppenheimer, but apparently there was a Chinese lady who was like, I have no exact name right now, so I feel horrible now. But she was just incredible and I read her Wikipedia page about how she understood, and she was like, almost...

won a Nobel Prize, from people's perspective, that shows us a legend.

Shiyan Koh (33:56)

There's

There is a lot of smart people all over the world, right? And whoever can capture the smart people, I think, reaps the benefits. And so it's just like a weird strategy to me. Yeah, I mean, think a lot of people are going to think twice. But I think what was interesting in this trip was from a founder perspective, right? The US is still the biggest, deepest market. And so if you can get over there and you feel like you want to make a bet on yourself to go build a big company, people still want to do that.

Jeremy Au (34:18)

You know, I think that's actually a really good two things to compare, right? Because from my perspective is that actually very similar, we're talking about talent, right? And talent is bell-curved, right? In the sense that from people who are super good in this one domain to people who are not good in this domain. So Jeremy is horrible at piano, but he's probably good at, probably not the podcasting in the Southeast Asia context. Not world-class. But you know, but, and, that's the talent piece, which is like, you know, on this, I'm on one side for this one skill and...

And then we talk about it, which is there are certain hubs, right? Talent vortexes that suck in talent. And so if you wanted to be the best at, I'm just example, acting, you probably want to go to Hollywood. And there's some local regional hubs like Bollywood. Obviously there's the Chinese to have their own Hong Kong nexus for acting, et cetera. So there's these pockets for their own local markets, but Hollywood is that talent vortex for acting talent. And that's Los Angeles, it's not New York,

Acting, you go to Los Angeles, right? That's, and then if you want to be a founder, you go to the Bay, South San Francisco, right? If you're the best in Singapore, you want to go to the Bay, right? To cut your teeth there and see how good you're good. And then I guess the tricky part now is if you're the world's best scientist, you're the best scientist in Japan or Singapore, would you go to Boston? And the answer is this year you can't go to Boston. Not until you get your visa unblocked, right? For example, so.

So I think that's an interesting, because yes, Tyler's a bell curve, but I think if you look at where we are, which is like in venture capital startups, it's like, it's almost a power law curve, which is the bell curve, one end of it, but that tail creates that power.

Shiyan Koh (35:49)

but the talent, talent aggregation is one thing, but it's also capital, right? Like why is it in Hollywood? Cause that's where the most money is. And they reinforce each other, right? And it's the same thing for startups, right? It's like, isn't in the Bay area and in China, like why is it in Beijing or Hangzhou, right? Like, like that's where the money is and people have built big businesses. And so you, you, continue to, to feed that loop. And I would say the same thing of like research, right? Like,

Jeremy Au (35:56)

Yeah, and they reinforce each other.

Shiyan Koh (36:15)

The NIH is a huge funder of basic research, right? And so in the absence of that money, then where does it go? Maybe the Middle East. That's where all the money is.

Jeremy Au (36:24)

Yeah. mean, I think that's where the, I think it's the flywheel, right? I mean, you know, it's like talent density attracts other talent, which attracts capital to find that talent, which generates outsize return because we have great talent and great money combining. get great returns and great returns attracts more talent. So that flywheel, you know, keeps going. Right. And so I think that's a tricky part. And by the way, that's why Harvard was so successful. Not because, you know, blah, blah, blah, the name and because it's one of the oldest universities. But also because of that, like I said, flywheel, right? People want to go to Harvard because the best professors on, let me see, example, longevity would be, know, David Sinclair, right? People back, I think some people are going to start.

Shiyan Koh (37:07)

was gonna say, are we gonna talk about Resveratrol

Jeremy Au (37:10)

and NMN and NR. But I'm just saying like, but there's a very strong like longevity lab that is well-reported down there. And so people want to work in that space. You know, there's this feeder program, which is like, you know, in undergrad, you wanted to be a bio scientist and then suddenly you started zooming in to be like, I want to do like longevity and aging. And then you do your, then you did your master's, then you go do your PhD at Harvard. And so there's this massive suction effect. Where Harvard had these like rock star professors that were globally known. And then they got this incredible bench of like super hungry, super ambitious, super smart. And then people, and then money comes in and it's like, you know what? You know, like you did this, you did that. Why don't we do the next thing on top of that? Right. And then those lads were spitting out patents, startups, spinoffs. I mean, that's what MIT is so known for. was this class at MIT called commercializing science, right. Which was basically like.

Jeremy Au (38:04)

which was always, I thought it was hilarious because, you know, all of us learn about product market finishes, what does the market want, right? And for them at MIT, was a class called Commercializing Science, which was basically saying like, we have all these technologies that are being invented and we just need business people to come in and like dig through the pattern bin a little bit and be like, aha, you know, like there's this coating that makes straws extra smooth, which by the way, it's a real pattern, but you know, makes the inside of straws very low friction. What do do with this technology? How would I use it on a straw? Would I use it on oil and gas? Would I use it for like, you know, biomedical purposes? There's so much cool stuff that happens. Like, can you imagine having that class in Singapore? I mean, it's difficult, right? To teach a whole class to say, this is a library. I met somebody there and they were like, Hey, why don't you give me some feedback? And I said, well, okay, let me open a website. it's the issue where it is like, they only show a very small subset of all patterns, which by nature of a portal fails immediately because why would you? And then the argument was like, we want to only show the best of our patterns. But I'm like, how do you know that is the best of all patterns? I mean, so I want to see all patterns and two of costs, unlike the MIT and Harvard who have similar portals.

Shiyan Koh (39:02)

How do you know?

Jeremy Au (39:11)

You can't filter by, you know, the filter mechanism is super weak. So you can't filter for, you can't do the right searches, words and materials.

Shiyan Koh (39:20)

So it basically failed the job one.

Jeremy Au (39:22)

Yeah, which is like, is this easy for me to navigate and see everything and filter for what I want to see? Which is like step one of this. The feedback they got was I don't dare forward this feedback to that office. That's bad. That's really bad. I mean, I was like, and I was like, I was like, that's bad, right? But if we look at the portal, it literally is no joke. Like an order of magnitude.

Shiyan Koh (39:29)

Did he receive the feedback well? That's really bad. Okay, so like I have this idea at first I was like I think we should have an Instagram account like an anonymous Instagram account called computer say no Yeah, where people just forward us like stupid like bureaucratic responses No, like that make no sense, right? Where you're like wait Is there a human that actually approve this because this makes no sense? But this is also one which like maybe it's an expansion of this which like like cannot like this is above my pay grade or something like that's the kind of like rot that leads to bad outcomes when people like don't dare to say like what is patently obvious.

Jeremy Au (40:20)

I you. I respect that.

Shiyan Koh (40:24)

That should be that should be a segment on the podcast. I can't believe this is real life Or that's not a good that's not it. That's not a catchy name Someone should really look into this

Jeremy Au (40:30)

Yeah.

Shiyan Koh (40:35)

Well, totally! Put an LLM interface on it! You should be able to query it! I mean, this is just- my god.

Jeremy Au (40:40)

Actually, you know what? If NUS and NTU installed an LLM on top of it, it would be an order of magnitude better than what half an MIT has want this podcast. But that's the crux of it.

Shiyan Koh (40:52)

You can do that, right? You basically already have the body of knowledge that it's, I'm sure it's in a box folder somewhere. It's gotta be right. Someone's gotta be keeping all these patents. But Microsoft also has, you know.

Shiyan Koh (41:10)

But I mean, I should think that there's like a bunch of stuff like this. Maybe we need a more positive name, not like forward this to someone, but like, you know. 80-20 fixes. Let 80-20 fixes. Things where you're just like, this isn't doing the job. Yeah. You're like, do the job. I read a lot of reviews for like restaurants and stuff. People are like, why do you do that? I was like, well.

Shiyan Koh (41:29)

I feel like for small ones, they're like small places, mom and pops, if they're doing a good job, I want to give them additional visibility. But also I'm just like, does anybody give them feedback? I try not to give like unconstructive stuff, but like I will be like, hey, like the toilets were pretty dirty and there were no paper towels. You should look into that. Or the layout is not operationally efficient. You should consider separating the food and the drinks line and you would make more revenue because people don't leave.

Jeremy Au (41:52)

Is the feedback public or private? For me, I generally only leave positive reviews.

Shiyan Koh (41:54)

I like. I don't I don't give them like one star or anything. But I do try to like write content that's like useful.

Jeremy Au (42:02)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it's like the... know, I was raised by my parents like, have nothing good to say, don't say it. This is the American way. My mom is like... It's like, so American. Nothing good to say, don't say. Oh my god. So got something good to say.

Shiyan Koh (42:07)

Feedback is a gift, Jeremy.

So like, you know how your children end up copying you in ways that you don't expect? So like, my daughter loves these like, you know the, it's not like 乳条 but it's like the 蝴蝶. So like, she loves those and you know, whenever we go to the market or whatever, you know, I'll buy one. And one day I was like at some different market and I saw like, you know, I had one of those like famous, know, duck waist store or whatever. was like, oh, okay, I'll pick one up for her. And I brought it to her. And she was like, this isn't very good, mom.

Jeremy Au (42:24)

Oh yeah, the flight by the flight by the way.

Shiyan Koh (42:42)

Can we give them feedback on it? I was like, think the feedback is I won't buy it from there again. Imagine telling the auntie like, excuse me, UTR is not as good.

Jeremy Au (42:51)

The review of Beasley on the bike. Young Daughter. there I got it.

Shiyan Koh (42:54)

Actually we prefer the fair market one. This one. That's the best.

Jeremy Au (42:57)

Okay, I think I've done once at food reviews, where it's like in America, I did like a food review of like different like Singaporeans. Because you know, there's a very unique requirement with just like, homesick Singaporeans who need to like, you know, what a local place to eat.

Shiyan Koh (43:11)

Yeah, I did one Vietnamese place where I was like, this is very close to bach homi, but it is named this thing on the Vietnamese noodle restaurant menu.

Jeremy Au (43:19)

Is it in SF? Yes. Is it? No it isn't! My review? No I didn't read your review but I definitely I have it on my Google Doc and I was like this this store is actually really close. it's in SF China Town. Very close. Yeah.

Shiyan Koh (43:22)

I give me ⁓ Yeah, yeah. It's very close. Oh my god, yeah. It was very funny. like, I was at a conference being hosted at Twitter. And then I met this other Singaporean in tech that I did not know before. But he looked at my name tag and he's like, are you from Singapore? And I was like, how did you know? He's like, only Singaporeans would transliterate their Chinese name in that way. And I was like, oh. Then we went to the like conference buffet, know, and it's always like salad and sandwiches. And he looked at me, he's like, you want to eat bachon? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, let's get out of here. like, this looks horrible. That's how we became friends.

Jeremy Au (44:06)

That's

so nice, that's so sweet. On that note, I think that's a way to wrap up. Yeah, I know. Now we're gonna like, leave all the... Like, what's your favorite bachame, please?

Shiyan Koh (44:09)

Now it makes me want to eat butter.

The one near ICA. other ones are pretenders. Don't be fooled by the cousins or whoever. The real one

Jeremy Au (44:24)

at Ravender. Actually, for me, I only recently watched a documentary and I actually can't tell the difference.

Shiyan Koh (44:31)

There's a documentary? Yeah. About Batchamie? Please send it to me.

Jeremy Au (44:33)

Yep, cause this...

I'll send it to you. There's apparently some stuff like...

Shiyan Koh (44:37)

no, we can tell. like, we have a family group chat with also the aunties and uncles and everyone is very devoted to Tai Hwa Mee Pok Yeah. And so every time a new one opens, some family member will try it and then like report back into the group chat. There are good places, but like I think Tai Hwa the thing about it is the soup is really good It's like very complex Yes flavors, and I feel other people like don't pay as much attention to the soup obviously There's like the cute cute nose of the noodles and like the pork lard all that other stuff And then you know what is are you like a more vinegary person? You're more like spicy or sweet right but to me like the pinnacle of that one is the soup

Jeremy Au (45:29)

You can't totally imagine like a franchise, acceleration, regional, global.

Shiyan Koh (45:35)

No, no, It's just like, you shouldn't send your child to a school that is run by private equity. Because your goals as a parent are in opposition to their goals as a capitalistic owner.

Jeremy Au (45:46)

Sorry, I'm just amusing because is this like venture capital is a subset of private equity? Private equity is a different animal. I'm just saying that from an LP perspective, some people say that venture capital is a subset of private

Shiyan Koh (45:51)

No no no, you know what I mean. Yeah, probably use a different magic.

I mean, sure, in the sense that the fee structure is similar, but not in a sense of the types of businesses you invest in and the structure of those teams.

Jeremy Au (46:07)

Okay, on that note, on a sudden, mind meld on, know, bak chow mee noodles and private equity and VC business class models. I think it's a good way to wrap. So I don't know. See you next time.

Shiyan Koh (46:19)

See you next time.