Camille Ang: Founding Hive Health, Harvard Kennedy School & MBA and Public Service Passion - E361

Camille Ang, CEO & Cofounder of Hive Health, and Jeremy Au talked about three main themes:

1. Family & Public Service Passion: Camille shared about her upbringing in a third-generation Chinese Filipino family that emphasized education and hard work. Her passion for public service and desire to address societal inequality through infrastructure development led her to start her career in the government sector. She noted the stark difference between working in the public sector (which offers a slow-moving but broad change) vs. the private sector (which provides rapid effect-focused impact).

2. Founding Hive Health: Camille highlighted the challenges of limited social health insurance coverage, care coordination, and prevalent misconceptions about healthcare in the Philippines. She co-founded Hive Health, a YC-backed full-stack health insurance company that offers comprehensive plans for small and medium enterprises (SMEs). She elaborated that Hive Health integrates tele-health services and EMR systems to address the gap in healthcare accessibility, where less than 10% of the country’s population has HMOs. She also shared about the acquisition of Health Plan Philippines, which allowed the company to enhance the quality of healthcare services available to Filipinos.

3. Harvard MPA/ID & MBA: Camille shared about what she experienced at her joint Master of Public Administration in International Development (MPA/ID) and Master of Business Administration (MBA) degree at Harvard. She discussed her desire to understand poverty reduction, the role of infrastructure in emerging economies, and the impact of big businesses on society. She shared how her studies shifted her focus from macro-level industrial policies towards making a direct and meaningful impact in the Philippines and Southeast Asia through entrepreneurship.

Jeremy and Camille also talked about the nationwide legalization of Transport Network Vehicles (TNVs), the role of the public sector in driving legislation, and commuting as a metaphor for inequality.

Supported by Acme Technology

Are you a business owner, CFO, or engineering lead who's tired of grappling with outdated finance processes? Are you frustrated at the high costs of card payments or find yourself bogged down by manual financial tasks? It's time for a change. Meet Acme technology. Our software enables you to connect directly with your bank of choice to automate all your finance and payment processes. Enjoy real-time reconciliation and direct bank payments and payouts. No lengthy integration. Transform your banking experience into a Stripe experience. All with easy integration through streamlined APIs. Learn more at www.tryacme.com

(02:31) Jeremy Au:

Hey, Camille, really excited to have you in the show. Finally, after so many years of knowing each other.

(02:35) Camille Ang:

Thanks for having me, Jeremy. What an honor.

(02:37) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. Well, could you introduce yourself real quick?

(02:39) Camille Ang:

Awesome. Okay. So I'm Camille Ang, and I guess in light of the theme of this podcast, I'm the CEO and Cofounder of Hive Health. I grew up in the Philippines born and raised in the Philippines and really spent well, in terms of education, I took up Management Engineering at Ateneo, which I believe you'd had a couple of encounters with alumni from. And really spent the bulk of my career in something I'm really passionate about, which is public-private partnerships. So, I worked across McKinsey, government, and private equity with Macquarie really looking into public-private partnerships. And, yeah, recently went to grad school, taking up an MBA and, an MPA in International Development with Harvard, and in the middle of the pandemic, changed the course of my career and got myself into tech and health care And basically started Hive.

(03:24) Jeremy Au:

Amazing. I also have to mention that we have been good friends since what, I'm meeting you at a conference, I guess, at Harvard Business School, I think it was a lunch table

(03:32) Camille Ang:

Yes, it was the same night I met my now fiance.

(03:36) Jeremy Au:

I know, right?

(03:37) Camille Ang:

But I remember you and not him. Jonathan will kill me.

(03:42) Jeremy Au:

He is like, he's gonna kill you. But Jonathan was the previous guest on the podcast as well, Jonathan Eg. So you can check out his podcast here. But also I wanna say Camille again, thank you so much for saving my two cats during the pandemic. I'm gonna say that. Luke and Lea.

(03:53) Camille Ang:

Man, Jeremy, I will tell them one day how you left them in New York.

(03:58) Jeremy Au:

Global Pandemic. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, we pieced out the Singapore, we left them in an apartment, and then Camille and Jonathan saved them. There we go.

(04:06) Camille Ang:

They were good fun.

(04:07) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So Camille, could you share a little bit more about what you were like growing up? You went to Ateneo. Were you like a partier? Were you a very studious, very introverted? Were you extroverted?

(04:18) Camille Ang:

I guess I would classify myself as very extroverted during that time, much more than I am right now. Yeah. I grew up in the Philippines, but came from, very similar to kind of the Chinese diaspora in Southeast Asia came from the third generation. My grand Chinese family, so a lot of those family emphasis, education is important a lot of the good stuff, but also a lot of the conservative stuff on what expectations are for women my great grandmother still had lotus feet, where they would bound her feet just to stay at home, at home, and I think she was the first one who ever had an education in her family.

(04:50) Jeremy Au:

Wow.

(04:50) Camille Ang:

So, for our generation, we all have education but there is I guess less emphasis in terms of like leadership and career for women which was a little frustration for me growing up, but I appreciate where they came from but also figured I guess growing up It was a figuring out which part of the spectrum.

(05:09) Jeremy Au:

Wow. And what's interesting is that, you would eventually intern and work at different places, but really spend that time working in the Philippine government. Could you share more about that?

(05:18) Camille Ang:

Yeah, that was a bit of a scandal internally. So I grew up in a private Chinese, grade school, high school in the Philippines, and it was only in college where I kind of see a broader view of the Philippines and got to see different parts of the Philippines and the pain points and poverty around in a deeper level. And Ateneo's a Jesuits school and social justice is a big theme and really bought into that, wanted to explore that when I graduated, it was a keynote administration and suddenly for the first time in my life, I saw a lot of like smart people from abroad, CEOs of company, joining at a 90% pay cut to really drive change. And at that time, the Undersecretary for Transportation invited me. The joy and I was like, okay, I'll do this for two months just for, to see the pain points. When I'm 50 years old, I'll go back to government when I've already learned the things in the private sector.

But after two months, I was like, Hey, actually, things are like, happening fast. And the first project they gave me was the Mactan-Cebu Airport, second largest airport in the Philippines, and they wanted to do a public private partnership out of it. We were negotiating with actually, like Changi was part of it and like different foreign players, and it was interesting because I remember walking into that office and there were so many feasibility studies of projects that never happened, but suddenly this one that I'm handling as a fresh grad seemed to have hope. So I was like, okay, let me try to stay for six more months and then I stayed for another six months and then I kind of stayed until the end of the administration where we were able to roll out things like the public private partnership to the airport, other PPPs, projects, we were able to create the first ever, I think, I remember on Al Jazeera featuring this, we were the first ones who implemented TNVs, like Grab and Uber being legal nationwide, having the regulation for that, and it was like pretty amazing and one of the highlights of my career actually.

And that was like interesting for me to prove assumptions wrong. A lot of people are like, okay, you'll join government, you'll just be eaten up by the system. You won't be able to do anything. And actually I don't regret it any single day that I spent there. And I think it really not just help the people that we were able to help, but help me as a person grow as well.

(07:27) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, it's interesting because there you were at the Department of Transportation, really figuring out a lot of this infrastructure, which is something that's something that needs to be developed all across Southeast Asia. And what's interesting is that you went off to Macquarie and continue working on infrastructure and real estates. Could you share more about that?

(07:42) Camille Ang:

I remember entering grad school and I was probably the top percentile of people who were like, super, super sure on what they wanted to do in life. Ironically, didn't do what I said I'd do. And I think, so my family's into real estate and I really admire my dad for building townships and whatnot and thought that affordable housing was like an interesting space. And infrastructure is an interesting space to be at. Learning about public private partnerships, my plan was really to work with local governments to build public private partnerships like bridges, townships, and whatnot from the private sector. And I thought infrastructure was really key because it's the multiplier effect. And growing up in the Philippines, I would see people who go to work for 15 minutes and people who would go to work three hours, sometimes four hours and not even have proper transportation. And I feel like transport and infrastructure was like for inequality in the country. that was like an interesting problem to solve. So that's why infrastructure, it was kind of my life hypothesis at that time.

(08:41) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. And it was interesting because now you're done the public side and now you're also doing the private side. What would you say was like the difference from your perspective?

(08:49) Camille Ang:

Oh, interesting question. Yeah, I think from the public side, with proper political support, there's so much. That you can do one lever you can hover everyone about around you and really make crazy changes But it takes time like you have to speak to like multiple of stakeholders and it's also possible, like I've met a lot of people working on like a project for 12 years 10 years and it may not happen But actually if it happens, it's monumental.

But for the private sector, it's much faster in terms of what the impact that you can do, because can trick the change and scope out the impact that you want to make but in terms of really moving the needle on a macro level that would take more time. So, I think right now my view is it's a very personal choice and there is impact to be made on both sides.

(09:32) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. And then after that, you went off to do your Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard MBA combo. What was your thought process there?

(09:40) Camille Ang:

So I wanted to do MBA, the EconCyphers international development program. Yeah, I wanted to understand the why of like, I took up management engineering, didn't have any clue on economics. And my hypothesis was like infrastructure would move the needle in terms of poverty reduction. I was like, okay, if I'm going to do real estate, it has to be affordable housing, so it's meaningful. If I'm going to do anything in finance, it should be microfinance, kind of like the fringe social enterprise types. I was part of Gawad Kalinga, which was a social enterprise initiative. So that was kind of my thesis, but I wanted to understand, okay, from a macro level, what really moves the needle in terms of poverty reduction? So that's why I wanted to do the MPID program. I didn't know it was like super technical and most people had like Masters in econ. So I almost died going through that. Thank you to all my classmates who helped me do all the coding and calculations. But I also wanted to do the MBA program because beyond like the theory I wanted to know the how, like how can I take this understanding of what moves the needle? And really, Take it into my own hands and try to implement something that's meaningful for intractable problems in developing countries specifically, hopefully for the region that I'm from, which is Southeast Asia. And there, I guess that's why it did it. I can share what I learned after,

(10:51) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, what did you learn?

(10:54) Camille Ang:

MPA/ID program was super interesting. I remember there was this one class, who started the program came in, and he showed this chart. He was like, the correlation of median income per capita and poverty reduction is 99.3%, and only, I think, 0. 3 percent of poverty reduction was explained by non growth items. What that means is, actually what really moves the needle is, when you think of Korea, for example, are all these big businesses, like steel ship building, the industrial policy that really drives the jobs and the median income per capita of people, but it's funny because in government and all these like nonprofit kind of sector sometimes the private sector is bashed. They're like, Oh, all these big businesses are evil, but actually they're doing like a big role in society to move the needle. But also I think personal realization was, yes, there's the macro of what moves the needle, and I joined the Rwandan Development Board to go into that industrial policy like, Africa was the big source of the next poverty reduction, next to Asia but my realization was there's a big part of personal journey. I was like, why am I in Africa when there's so much to be done in the Philippines Southeast Asia? Why am I doing industrial policy when I think I have no distinct advantage to be doing this versus another sector that's more meaningful for me right now? And then the MBA program was really helpful in terms of having an ecosystem of other people building different things, like yourself. And learning from the different founder stories and the professors and all the cases and realizing that there is not one successful path. It's what resonates with me more and trying that out and realizing that, hey, it's actually possible was really helpful for me.

When we joined the Harvard Business School New Venture Competition, that was such a faraway dream for me. remember the only Southeast Asia company that won that was, I think Grab of Anthony Tan in 2011, which eventually launched it. And should we even apply to this? Too much. But then, like, all your friends are applying anyway, so, why not? And then, so it's like those little things that you think, like, why not why not, and until today, at Hive there's all these scary things. But then you have this mindset now of, like, why not, then just try it and implement things as fast as you can.

(13:03) Jeremy Au:

So curious because, you know, for myself, I just did a Harvard MBA and they used to call it the West Point of Capitalism. So I was like listening to it. I was like, why do people say it? so I'm kind of curious because the Harvard Kennedy School feels like, don't know, the West point of government? I mean, how did you feel? Were there any cultural differences between both sides?

(13:20) Camille Ang:

Oh, huge. I think like what people value are like very different in terms of what we call the two sides of the bridge. I remember hopping on Jon's scooter. They go through one class or another and the conversations will be so different, like what people are optimizing for. But I think it was like super complementary. Like on the Kennedy side there's people who come from different parts of the country, especially the program that we did was international development, who was, like, implementing all these changes in India, people were, like, super, super passionate about education in Brazil, or in Middle Eastern conflict. For me, coming from the Philippines, and most of my friends were like, from the Philippines, and coming from a family business I guess community like HBS was more familiar in terms of making an impact is like giving jobs to people and creating good businesses and when they're surplus, you give back.

Government was not even, my parents were against me going to government because like my dad is super passionate about helping people in terms of, solving poverty as well. But the theory of change is so different. But then like you go to the other side of the river and they think, okay, what are the policies we can do? What's the economic model that really changes things. Just last week, a friend of mine who had background working in like Pru, a Frenchren, they're like, Hey this bill in the Philippines is working on additional policy. Can you be up with the senator here and they get super excited about changing things from a more macro perspective and like it's interesting seeing both sides because it's almost like the schools are a representation of like society as a whole as well and how people think about their view of change.

(14:52) Jeremy Au:

You mentioned earlier that it was like controversial to work in government, to study government studies. Could you share a little bit more about why?

(14:58) Camille Ang:

Controversial for my family.

(15:00) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, I guess that's how you defined it, I guess.

(15:02) Camille Ang:

Yeah I guess it was more not mutual and I think they grew up in a different generation where there's a lot of like, being jaded, and on what the government can do. And they also have heard of a lot of stories of joining government, and you try to do good, but it actually bites you back because in government, there's little incentive to do things different, and that's what you actually need. And when you do things different, there's a risk that other stakeholders find something that puts you down. So, it was more out of love, that my family was against it. But I think in the end was a part of me.

(15:34) Jeremy Au:

You just love doing it. Yeah. And what's interesting is that you took this time and now you are back, at least from my perspective, giving back again, through an entrepreneurial route, decided to build and found Hive Health. Could you share more about that?

(15:45) Camille Ang:

Yeah, I guess first what Hive Health is, so we're the first full-stack health insurance company. That provides easier-to-use, higher-value, comprehensive HMO plans, health plans specifically for small, and medium enterprises. And really, what motivated me and my co-founders to start it is, on a personal level, growing up I would have a lot of friends who would have someone in the family has a health shock, and they wipe out their savings, wipe out their employer-sponsored plans, and really struggled to pay for their needs. And I always just thought that's the way things should be. But then studying in Boston, the healthcare capital, and realizing that there's a lot of things that can be done in terms of health financing, the improved health risk protection was really interesting, especially at the height of the pandemic. Me and Chawin, my co-founder, created this, made this entire question into our thesis at Harvard and we tried to answer why and how can we increase health risk protection for Filipinos.

What we discovered is more than 1.5 million Filipinos go into poverty every year because of health shocks and beyond the social health insurance, only less than 10 percent of the population have what they call HMOs, mostly large corporations. And the reason is a lot of these HMOs are built on legacy mammal systems, so it's very expensive for them to reach all these small, medium enterprises. And what that means for SMEs is they get poor service and they get really expensive plans just because their number of employees are really small. So we thought, hey, that's where the pain is most felt. And when we started to think about it, it was in the middle of COVID where there was increased digitization. And there was an increase in demand and greater quality care. So friends of mine who own businesses that would never provide a health plan before would be like, Oh, I would lose an employee because they don't have a health plan, or my health plan is actually not up to their standards. So then, because of this greater awareness and digitization and greater demand for quality health care, we saw an opportunity to build this capital market driven solution, i. e. a startup to try to solve this macro problem that we looked at from a Kennedy School point of view and now are trying to implement from a more business perspective.

(17:51) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, think it's interesting because you've serving thousands of doctors across the country. I think it's interesting because it's something that people really struggle with, obviously. Do you think are some myths and misconceptions about healthcare in the Philippines?

(18:05) Camille Ang:

Misconceptions from Filipinos about healthcare in the Philippines? This is a misconception I guess. of me also, growing up. So I always thought I had no concept of care coordination or primary care. In the Philippines, when someone has seven different kinds of symptoms, they go to seven different doctors, and my mom literally did this. She had a knee pain, she went to an oncologist because she had cancer, she went to a, she thought she had cancer, she went to a cardiologist, she went to our pediatrician, she went to our generalist doctor. She went to I think five or six doctors. And we see this in our previous patients before we instituted our new care model as well.

They would go to all these doctors and these doctors don't have their full medical records. So what happens is not only do they spend a lot of money either out of pocket or their health plan utilization. They also don't get the right standard of care because their doctors don't see their full medical history. So they get inaccurately misdiagnosed. And overall, bad health outcomes. So what we're trying to do at Hive and what we've built is beyond just making processes more efficient, like availing care instead of lining up in hospital for four hours. It's much easier. We've built an integrated, vertically integrated telehealth function with an EMR that we've built in house as well so that our own doctors are able to see all your medical records from your annual physical exam to all your consults. So then they get a bigger broader view of your medical history. And we kind of serve as a primary care function. So then your HIVE doctor routes you to the right care. And you're able to more efficiently use your health plan, more efficiently use your time, get a better standard of care for yourself and your loved ones.

(19:41) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. What's the interesting aspect is you're building a HMO. So most people don't know what a HMO is. It's something that I learned because I've always had a long interest in healthcare. Could you explain what a HMO means? But more specifically, have always thought of HMOs in the context of the US, right? So does, what does that mean in the context of the Philippines?

(19:57) Camille Ang:

Okay, let me say it in the context of the Philippines because it's probably different elsewhere. So, HMO and I guess healthcare, health financing in the Philippines is we do have social health insurance. It's provided by PhilHealth, but it only covers for inpatient care, and the liability is capped. So, let's say when you need cancer treatment you only get 8% of the cost of the care that you need, of the actual treatment that you need, and everything above that is out of pocket, which is why supplemental health plans are important, at least for the time being. I'm not sure when PhilHealth will eventually be able to cover for everyone's needs, I mean, that's the ideal hope. So supplemental health plans are important but as mentioned, it's only available to less than 10% of the population.

And what HMO means in the Philippines is before this whole industry was started by the company that we just recently acquired health, supplemental health plans were reimbursement based. So you go to the hospital you need a surgery, you pay it first and then you go back to your employers, they pay you back. But that's a difficult model for the Philippines because a lot of people don't have 300 to just pay up front. For some people that's their entire salary already for the entire month. So then a cashless system is important, which is what the HMO industry tried to do. So for us, we have 60, 000 doctors across the location with 1, 700 clinics and hospitals. You can just go to those hospitals when you need it, and you don't have to pay a single cent, and you get the care that you need

(21:19) Jeremy Au:

And what's interesting is how do you go about building HMO, right? Because it's such a esoteric thing. Is it like in my head, it's like go to every doctor, get them to agree, or is it like go to the employers, you sign them up or what's the, how did you go about doing that?

(21:34) Camille Ang:

It's a two-sided marketplace. So on the one hand, you have all your clients, but on the other hand, you have all these valuable doctors and providers that you need to convince to join you in the system. And if you look at the HMOs in the countries, they weren't built over time. So, the HAPI, which is an amazing company that we acquired, built it across four decades, and it took a lot of time for them to build that. So initially, we partnered with them to really test out the tech platform, intratech platform that we've done. But what we realized is, yes, we're getting all these customers and organic referrals and they're really happy with the way that we changed care availment, but to really move the needle in terms of health outcomes, incentives of doctors and providers to give the best care possible, we need to be able to control the quality levers and have a direct relationship with all these providers. And that's why we decided to acquire the company. So now we are able to combine the tech and data of Hive and the 37 years of institutional knowledge, data, provider network that HPDI has to really elevate the patient experience even further from where we are today.

(22:38) Jeremy Au:

And on that note, as you think about this, what is the growth approach? Is it like a sided marketplace, get more customers on one side, get more providers on the other side and just keep going? Is that the approach?

(22:49) Camille Ang:

Yes, in a sense, but there are a lot of back-end things that need to happen. So there's not just improving the service level for providers. There's a lot of admin hassle that providers have to deal with today. It's not just providing better service for providers and HR and patients, but it's, also can we use data and tech to really make the entire system more efficient and really increase healthcare accessibility? And when I say healthcare accessibility, it's not just population, which is more people having an HMO. It's also service and financial accessibility, meaning can we service, can we cover things like medicine, which is the number one out-of-pocket cost we discovered through our thesis, but it's oddly not covered in a basic HMO plan that you get. Or mental health. It's such an important issue, especially after the pandemic, but you also don't get it in your typical HMO plan. And the third pillar is financial coverage. So, liability is capped. The coverage is cap ped for health risk financing in the Philippines. Can you increase that cap so that when you get sick you are truly covered and not just get a small subsidy out of it? And that entails a kind of system overhaul to make the entire system more efficient and increase coverage and accessibility for Filipinos as a whole.

(24:02) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. On that note, could you share about a time that you personally have been brave?

(24:06) Camille Ang:

I guess entering healthcare was a scary feat altogether. As I mentioned earlier, infrastructure was my comfort zone. Entering real estate was my comfort zone, and that was my hypothesis. And I remember going to grad school and I told myself, I'll do a 70:30 approach, like 70% is, I'll go to conferences, attempt classes, meet people in the space that my hypothesis is at but I'll do the 30% just to see what's out there. I remember healthcare was one of those random stuff that I would attempt, like a random HBS healthcare conference that I know nothing about, and just understanding how painful the process is and how big of an opportunity there is as well and realizing that we may be the right people to do it, we, meaning my co-founder had a background in FinTech and data science, I had a background in public-private partnerships and private equity insurance fund management and understanding of the market, having that realization was scary because on the one hand, it was like, Hey, we can do something about it. But on the other hand, you were outsiders in this industry. Can we really do something about it? But it was helpful to have a large community of people doing crazy things, both in the business side, like running all these crazy startups, like yourself, and on the government policy side of people trying to move the needle in terms of intractable problems in so that was really helpful.

(25:26) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. did you bring yourself up to speed and get comfortable with healthcare as a domain?

(25:31) Camille Ang:

It wasn't overnight. I think people who were close to healthcare like Jon, my fiancé was a doctor before and was into healthcare, was really helpful. I think having a deeper understanding of the problem through different people, our thesis and speaking to our various stakeholders was a good start. The second pillar that really helped us was being in school was helpful because it was a low risk way to iterate on our ideas, join all these competitions. But the real conviction that really made us dive was all the customer feedback that people value this thing, we're not just like, providing a vitamin, we're providing like, a painkiller to something that people have been, clamoring for a long time and we haven't launched until this week, actually. We never went public, but most of our customers' accounts has have been through organic referrals of HR business owners that really love our product and would share it with other people.

And that's really encouraging. And what keeps us going. So I think 2 interesting stories is 1, yeah, recently patient of ours shared that she was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease. And I remember her quote she was like, "I needed to go through so many doctors, so many hospitals, and it impacted my overall health but because of how Hive structured their portal and dashboard, I realized that I can only do, I can spend just one hour doing all this versus spending ten hours in the hospital, and that was a big help." And another story is someone who just reached out and shared that our mental health coverage really changed his life. So he wasn't sure if he had ADHD and through our teleconsult, he was able to get a diagnosis that he actually had ADHD and was easily able to follow up, really checking if the meds has worked and it did. And yeah, he was sharing how it really changed the course of his life. Being able to easily access this because you can try to want to reach out to a doctor, but if it's such a hassle to do, a lot of people just end up not doing it, and you spend 10 years of your life not being diagnosed and not knowing, living a life that's less optimal.

(27:33) Jeremy Au:

On that note, thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways I got from this conversation. First of all, thank you so much for sharing about what you were like as a student, extroverted, also with a heart for public service. it was really fascinating to hear your decision that was controversial at that point in time, to work in the government and the Department of Transportation, also get a good sense what public and private partnerships are, especially in the context of infrastructure and real assets. So really interesting to see that journey.

Secondly, thank you so much for sharing about what inspired you to work at Hive Health about your desire to improve health infrastructure and availability and access for so many uh, Filipinos. Uh, so really interesting to hear not just about how you solve the problem, but also how you started to grow both sides of the market, also about your acquisition of the health plan, Philippines as well part of your expansion. So really fascinating there.

Lastly, thank you so much for sharing about your own personal journey. I really enjoyed hearing about of the moments in terms of learning about healthcare. Also having the opportunity to learn from both the Harvard MBA program as well as the Harvard Kennedy School program and be surrounded by such great folks about thinking about the future and changing lives. On that note, thank you so much Camille for sharing.

(28:43) Camille Ang:

Thanks so much, Jeremy, for having me.