Hannah Yang: Founder to PM, Grief Timebox & Transition Reflections

Hannah is the author of Founder to PM and the CEO andFounder of TheShareWay. Founder to PM is the first detailed guide on howex-founders can land their first product management jobs. TheShareWay is a directory of companies that donatefood and raffle items to nonprofits. Previously, she worked in Product at Oscar Health and started her career as a managementconsultant at Deloitte Consulting.

Jeremy Au: (00:30)

Hey, Hannah, I'm so excited to have you. We've been long friends and I think that you have written an amazing book on Founder to PM. I'd love to hear you plug it, especially with your journey and I think they'll be really helpful for a lot of founders who obviously are part of the 39 out of 40 who achieve some level of different outcome from that being a unicorn. So, love to hear from your story.

Hannah Yang: (00:53)

Awesome. I'm so happy to be here today, Jeremy. Thank you for inviting me to the show. Really quick intro – I’m Hannah. I'm the author of a book called Founder to PM and I'm also a product consultant and I'm mainly here today because I wanted to share with you my journey from transitioning from being a founder to a product manager.

Prior to my current role, I worked as a product manager at Oscar Health, which just went public last year. I’ll love to just share some insights about how to make this transition, because when I was shifting my business to a side business from working on a full time, I needed to get a job ASAP, but I couldn't find any resources on this topic, which is so odd because most start-ups end up failing and a lot of startup founders make for really good product managers.

Since, I didn’t find any resources, I decided to share my learnings so that people can learn from my experiences.

Jeremy Au: (01:50)

Amazing. I guess the first question I have is we knew each other all the way back in undergrad days a little bit. How did you go from undergrad to saying, I want to be a founder and you shared your story and I also remember talking to you a little bit about that as well. But how did you become a founder? What was your initial motivation?

Hannah Yang: (02:09)

That's a great, great question. I think first, I have always been someone who took a lot of initiatives and had ideas in my head and I want to build a project. So, in college, I founded a club, I applied for grant which led me to go to India to start a programme. But my first gig out of college was actually a management consultant at Deloitte Consulting.

I think what happened was I was in the Bay Area and I was just surrounded by a lot of people building businesses and I would go to events and I'll meet friends of friends and ask them what they're doing and they're like, I'm building a business and I was like, Well, this is an option. I just met people and started going to hackathons with them and started working on stuff on the side.

And through getting to know these people and knowing that I like creating things and I have always been creating things since college, I just thought it would be really cool to take a shot at this and build a social enterprise. I was particularly interested in social good businesses. I double majored in international development of business, so I'm interested in taking a shot to see if I can do it too.

Jeremy Au: (03:16)

And I remember how excited you were because we were brainstorming that and obviously with different approaches because I had been a social entrepreneur then building a Start-Up and we were discussing it at the time, and I remember kind of like discussing with you and was just discussing what the reality, the economics, the dynamics of the business, and kept checking in.

Talk us through about what that experience was like as a founder. So obviously it is a quick transition between consulting to and then, of course, seeing it from the outside in Silicon Valley to being a founder yourself and eventually transitioned to say like this isn't it. But walk us through how that founder experience was at that point of time when you were full time.

Hannah Yang: (03:54)

Yeah it was really hard and it was a step by step process. I think many of you know, consulting is a very grueling job. It's really hard to have a side project. I had a side project, but at one point I knew like, okay, I need to give myself more time. So what I first did was I took a contracting gig which was like 9 to 5.

It actually ended at five, not consulting that went past 5. So the first step was, was I gave myself more time. I did contracting for a year and then I went full time on my business. I think being full time in your business, it's the hard part is that the moment you go full time, if you haven’t raised any funds, the clock starts ticking on your runway.

If you haven't on product market fit or your revenue isn't really in place, you become a little bit stressed like, okay, what can I do so that people start paying? That part was stressful and I feel like, in a way, sometimes, you become a little less creative because you're just trying to figure out what sticks versus when you hold a job or you raise money.

Maybe you have a little bit more breathing room to be more creative and whatnot. So being full time one was definitely stressful. Clocks starts ticking. But I also loved it because I had full time to create and ideate and work with people and the highs are much higher. The lows are much lower. If you get a win, like we landed a big deal like with a business, a customer, like that's also good because you do the work to do that.

Jeremy Au: (05:21)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How did you decide that it was time to no longer be full time, that it was time to kind of like put the share away in a different status and start broadening new opportunities?

Hannah Yang: (05:34)

I think what happened was my co-founder and I learnt about how investors like to invest in like business with like billion-dollar potential. This was our first gig so like we didn't realise like that was like a very important aspect of raising and we just decided that like we're not the type of company that's on that billion-dollar track and want to raise a ton of VC funding and we realised like we're very interested in building a really good leading high margin lifestyle business and we were also coming out of at the end of our runway. At that point we had to decide, okay, do we want to raise or do we want to not raise? And based on our personal goals, we decided that the lifestyle path makes the most sense for us.

So that's why we decided to get that job.

Jeremy Au: (06:25)

How do you feel like emotionally to go through that process? Because many founders are always in that period, obviously. Now, you're scared when you see it in hindsight, but at that part of time, it’s a very difficult position, right? So how is that emotionally discussed or to think through those parameters?

Hannah Yang: (06:41)

It was really hard. I mean, I had such a big vision for it and I think realising that's what we want for both of us, I had to kind of like scale back my vision for what it could be and I had put so much into it. So it's more like the realisation this is not going to be what I imagine it to be was really hard and for a period of two weeks, I was like really sad every day I was crying, but knowing that this is the right, right path for us, it was tough.

Jeremy Au: (07:08)

Why is it tough? I mean, if I wanted to leave a job at X company to join at another company, it wouldn't feel tough. It would be like, okay, you know, my boss sucked, right? Or that job is going to pay me better. From your perspective, why is it tough for a founder to have that decision?

Hannah Yang: (07:27)

Yeah, it's tough because you put so much of yourself into it and you made sacrifices. Two years, I was doing this full time. I didn't go to some of my friends’ weddings. I literally didn’t have an income for like two years...very little income. So, I made a lot of sacrifices and realising that it might not be what you envisioned it to be is also a bummer.

The reason I did this was like if I didn't do it, this wouldn't exist in the world and knowing that it's not going to exist to the extent that you want it to be was also like, Oh, like, I wish I could take it there fully. I think you just you just own it so much. It's kind of like your baby versus working at a company.

You probably aren't as attached to it.

Jeremy Au: (08:11)

How did you go about thinking through that process? Because it's not an easy discussion to have with anyone. I mean, I don't think too many people around the world or your friends knew exactly what you were going through either. So how did you go about making that decision? Did you talk to people? Was a more of an individual process? How was that process like?

Hannah Yang: (08:33)

The decision mostly came from discussions with my co-founder. So and I think if you have a co-founder, that's probably a joint decision versus consulting a bunch of friends. You may each consult friends individually, but if you have co-founders, this decision was probably made together. So after it was made, of course I was really sad. And then I talked to my close friends about it.

This is how I feel, but this feels like the right thing to do. I wasn't really talking to them to help me make a decision. It was more talking to them to vent and to feel confident that the next step is going to be great, that the things that friends do for you and when you're sad about things.

Jeremy Au: (09:16)

As you were thinking through that aspect of it, was it important for you to know what your next thing was going to be? Or did you not know what the next thing was going to be in terms of career or the next phase?

Hannah Yang: (09:31)

Yeah. So, I knew I had to get a job and I had a hunch what it would be from knowing the types of roles my friends have had in the tech space. So, the sure way is a tech product. So, it was I had a hunch, but I wouldn't say like I nailed it. This is even when I was looking, I still looked like a couple different types of roles.

But that transition had to happen quickly because the reason we shifted was that we were running out of runway, so we had like a couple like maybe 2 to 3 months to nail the next thing. So I feel like once I finished my grieving period, I had to move really quickly to like, okay, I need to figure out what I want to do next.

Prepare for it, apply, interview. The thing I decided to do was to become a product manager, mainly because of all the things I did before, I love talking to users the most, figuring out what they need, like building something and then showing it to them and seeing that like a-ha moment in their eyes, that was like my favourite part.

I learnt that in a tech or a company like that's typically what the product managers do, talking to users, figure out what they need.

Jeremy Au: (10:39)

In that aspect. Okay, so that's an interesting dynamic because obviously there's the tackle how to be a PM role, there's a choosing to be a PM, which is a little bit earlier before that. But you say an interesting phrase, which was you either get through the grieving process as fast as possible. So, what does it mean to grieve a start up and what does it mean to get through it as quickly as possible from the dynamic?

Hannah Yang: (11:00)

Yeah, it's kind of like time boxing it. It's September, I need to get a job at the end of December because that's what my runway looks like. I feel really shitty, really sad right now. And let me just like take it all in and digest for the next week or two weeks, but when that time is up, I have to get going because there's a very realistic timeline to where I need to be in a couple of months.

Jeremy Au: (11:24)

Right. How did you grieve or how have you seen other founders grieve and what does that process look like from your perspective?

Hannah Yang: (11:32)

The thing’s I don't think a lot of founders share that aspect. So, I actually haven't heard too many stories of other founders grieving, and I think it's not shared very often. I can tell you how I went it, I was crying almost every day. It's like a part like crying, part confusion, like, what do I do next?

I would like cry and I would journal and I would talk to friends like this is what I'm thinking. Does it make sense? And I go back to journaling again. I think it's different for everybody. It's like whatever process you go through when there's like a really big shift in your life, whether it's like maybe you like got let go, you had to figure out your next steps or like someone says something that made you realise you're off track or like you're not on the right track.

It's like a little bit existential and also a little bit like sad about the ending of like a chapter.

Jeremy Au: (12:20)

How does that process happen from your perspective in terms of getting to the next chapter? It's interesting, like you say, you’re time boxing it, but you need to get pushed to the next chapter, you're doing the journaling and you're also doing a career at the same time, which makes it very difficult, nobody does that in senior year. In senior year, you’re doing a career search, in a very excited slash nostalgic way.

But does there’s that time compression that’s also happening as a founder. So, how does that, from your perspective, look like?

Hannah Yang: (12:49)

I think the main thing is coming to terms of this is the next whatever, like figuring out what the next thing is for you and coming to terms like this is what's going to look like this point onward. I don't think you just like you just stop working on the start up. There's still stuff that I was like handling for a few months onwards, but instead of spending 40 hours a week on it, I'm now doing 30, 20, 10.

You know, it's like slowly reducing it. But that moment went for that shift that like one-, two- or three-week period, right? When things feel like a mess, I feel like the key is like coming to terms and deciding, okay, this is the right thing to do and it's time for me to move on. Once you made that decision, it's not like you just stop working on your start-up.

You may still have to close some loops, or maybe you're shifting it to a side business, that's what we do. Wasn't fully shut down. It was just moving much slower. I think coming to terms and once you decided that this is it, then creating like the next steps and the action items like, okay, how do I get this gig that I want.

Once I decided it was like go mode. I think all the founders out there understand what go mode means. You know exactly what you need to do and how to get there and use your grit and hustle.

Jeremy Au: (14:03)

Do you ever feel like settling to you? That's one thing I've heard from other founders. It's just like after you've been a founder, it feels like you're settling to be a PM, to be something. So, what does that look like for you from your perspective?

Hannah Yang: (14:16)

I didn't feel like I was settling because I feel like it's not that easy to get a PM gig. The friends I know who are PM’s, these are like super legit people. So, I knew like, okay, how do I get in and how do I break into this? And I also feel like I was looking forward to and excited for the learning that this role will give me.

Because how I learnt PM was through books and talking to people and trial and error. This was an opportunity for me to learn it from someone at a company, so I was very excited for the learning opportunities for that. I feel like once I got over the sad part, I was like looking forward to like, okay, it would be nice to have a job and have some income and like go out to a lot more dinners with friends and just feeling like a little bit more relaxed.

Jeremy Au: (15:03)

How did you go about looking at all of the different career opportunities? So you hadn't been a PM before and now you were exploring. PM is one of those hunches, but also a range of career opportunities that you saw. You could have become a consultant again, right? You could, I don't know, have joined an incubator, for example, and there's so many different roles that are available.

How did you triangulate and say PM is the quasi-ish kind of role that works well?

Hannah Yang: (15:31)

Yeah. So, like, I think the stuff I looked at was PM and then there's stuff that lends itself well to ex-consultants, which could be like programme manager at Tech companies or like you're on a strategy and operations team of Uber or something. And then there are like market research roles in like social impact, like companies, businesses, nonprofits.

I looked at all of these and I think, at the end of the day, it's like I like building products and I really enjoy pulling together a team to build something. And because I liked that so much, I feel like PM was the best fit for me? But in the back of my mind, I was like, okay, can I make it?

If I get rejected, I can't get hired. Maybe I have to go to these ex-consultant type of roles, right? But I decided to give myself that shot at like trying to become a PM.

Jeremy Au: (16:28)

I remember kind of like catching up with you and you said that actually becoming a PM was hard and not just because of the bar but also because of the translation dynamic between founder to PM. Could you share a little bit more about what the challenges are of becoming a PM when you were a founder before?

Hannah Yang: (16:45)

Yeah, absolutely. First thing is like fixing up my resume to be very PM focused. I think the first couple of places I applied to, my resume had a mix of great things I did as a consultant that's strategy related. I also included sales stuff that I did. like how I landed, like Phil's Coffee or Vita Coco, like these big brands.

When I was learning about how to break into PM, one of the things I learnt was your resume should be pretty much 90% about PM skill sets because they're looking to hire PM and other resumes that these people or hiring managers are looking at are people who have already been PM’s whose resume is like 100% PM. What I had to learn to do was I need to take out the sales and business development stuff I did and just every skill set should reflect a PM skill set or so maybe the sales set is not…you have to reframe it in a PM skill. I had to do that huge clean up. That was one thing that was important and the other one item that I learnt was you need to find like…not let rejections bog you down. I think just as how investors kind of like pattern match people they want to find, hiring managers also have pattern recognition, right?

Maybe they just like to hire people who have been PM’s before or people who have worked at these companies previously before coming here. So, one thing is to find the right companies. There are going to be a percentage of companies that don't like to hire founders or like they want to hire people who had been a PM in the past.

Don't get hung up on the ones that just flat reject you without getting to know you. Another one that was a challenge was like figuring out how to answer those interviews and giving myself a PM crash course to learn how to talk about my experiences in a way that they will understand.

Jeremy Au: (18:42)

Well, what's interesting is that you mentioned that companies may want to recruit founders and some may not want to recruit founders. And the converse of that founders may deem themselves is what are the biases or why would I be in a good position to apply for a job versus why would people think I'm not good fit for a job?

And there's a lot to hear, actually, a bit more about that before we go into the tips of that.

Hannah Yang: (19:04)

Yeah. So in terms of what types of companies will be a good fit for ex-founders looking to become PM’s, like what I've learnt is start-ups like ex-founders a lot more because if you're a startup, you usually have to wear multiple hats and as a founder, you've done so many things, right? But then if you're really interested in big companies like Google or like Amazon, one angle to approach roles at bigger companies is to look for ones that are looking like or is that you're the PM of a new product or you're the PM responsible for discovering a new market or find a bigger product market fit for this thing.

After I got hired at Oscar, my hiring manager and my manager told me that the reason they hired me was because the role I took up was a lot more ambiguous. Like you kind of had to like figure out how to navigate things not super clear. And they felt like I would be the right fit versus other candidates may feel like very fazed out by the ambiguity of it.

Jeremy Au: (20:06)

They prefer it when there's more ambiguity. So, a founder needs to kind of like converge on it and figure it out versus companies that are much more structured and would prefer someone who has much more PM experience already.

Hannah Yang: (20:17)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy Au: (20:18)

What does that mean? So, in terms of the language to interviews, what you need to do differently?

Hannah Yang: (20:23)

Yeah. So I'll give you one example - in this one interview, the interviewer asked me, tell me about your product development process. This was like earlier on, I would just learning how to say things correctly in interviews. So, I would just have, you know, like I talked to users, figure out what they need, go back and talk to my co-founder, build an MVP really quickly, and then I show it to the users again and get their feedback.

And then I would come back and brainstorm again and improve on it and show it to the user. Zero PM vocabulary in there. Now that I've been a PM at Oscar, like how I would answer that question now is first I will conduct quantitative and qualitative research about what the user's needs are. Quantitatively, I could run surveys, qualitative I can run like moderated interviews to understand their needs.

From there, I will draft up the key takeaways and the learnings, and if I want my team to be super involved, I can host a sprint group brainstorm where I can collect ideas from my whole team of engineers and designers on what the solution should be. Then we will figure out our direction and as a PM I will write the product requirement spec and then share that with the engineers to get their feedback and iterate on the product requirements until its final.

And once it's final, work with the tech leads to break it into multiple sprints to see how long it will take and once that is in build, working with product marketing to figure out how to launch it and set the correct metrics on how we will measure success. To work with data scientists to figure out what those metrics are and to tagged analytic events correctly.

And then, once it launches, gather feedback to see if we met our success metric. It's like so different to the first version.

Jeremy Au: (22:18)

Yeah, there's a huge difference. I think that's also a huge hurdle, right, for a lot of our founders to make the transition from language system A to language system B. How should they go about learning it? I guess one of them is buying your book - Founder to PM. You want to share a little bit more about why you wrote that and what it covers?

Hannah Yang: (22:36)

Yeah. So, I wrote that book because I realised like as a founder you've done a lot of what PM’s have done. You're 90% there, you just need to spend 10% to package yourself. It's like totally doable and totally possible. And I wrote this book because I want to give founders this confidence that they can do it and that they've done the work of what a PM does.

So, this book is essentially my tips on like how do you package yourself? How do you get there? So, the sections in the book are one like Get your resumé right. So, I have a few tips about what are some key words to use, how to structure your resumé and whatnot. The second section is like finding the right company.

So, like this is stuff I learnt about which companies tend to be the right fit. And then the third section is about how do you land the interviews? So, like this is about hustling, about referrals, about how to just get that foot in the door. And then this last section is how to prepare for your interview. So, this one I talk about, give yourself a PM crash course, learning how to answer these questions like that example I gave that example in my book about how to answer that question.

So, there are like a couple more like key questions where I share with you like the before and the after. So, you can kind of see how I reframed my experience to sound in a way that's much more PM-y. So, I wrote this book because I really want to help other founders. And in terms of how to give yourself a product crash course, I share this in there.

There are several blogs inspired by Marti Kagan - Cracking the PM interview is another good one; Sprint, I think from people at Google and lots of product videos online that you can watch. And I also went to product events where like product leaders would talk about how they do certain things. And I think those are great because you learn how they talk about things and what are the words that they use.

Jeremy Au: (24:33)

Amazing. When you think about that transition. What's interesting for me is time flies. So, you've made a transition and you became a PM. What was that like when you became a PM? So, you successfully closed the PM role. You got a job. How do you feel to have that offer? Let's start with that.

Hannah Yang: (24:53)

It felt really good. I think I got a few and the Oscar one ended up being the best one. And I think once I got one from before, which I didn't take. So the first one you get, it'll give you a boost of confidence. Okay, if I can get this one, it means I'm on the right track. I can probably get something else.

When I eventually got the Oscar offer, I was super excited because it’s a pretty well-known company in the digital health space. The pay was pretty good, like that felt so good. I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. I'm going to go from barely anything to like this amount so…their office is cool, having colleagues, like another thing about being a founder is a pretty lonely process.

You're pretty much on your own or with a co-founder until you hire employees. So, I was very excited about entering into this context again, where I'm going to have colleagues and you go for coffee walks and whatnot. So, I was feeling really good and super excited.

Jeremy Au: (25:53)

When you started that process. You know, time flies like a year and everything. And then one thing is that I think your past company, obviously you learnt about how the pass company is from a different pie. So it's very like the kind of Elyria and psychology like it's not cause and effect but human psychology - where you are today changes how you perceive the past.

Now that you've become a PM with some experience, how did your view of your Start-Up change as a result of your experience as a PM at Oscar Health?

Hannah Yang: (26:26)

Yeah, I think one of the first thing was like, Oh my gosh, in my eyes, I gave my tech leads pretty bad requirements as a founder because I would just say, Oh, this is roughly what they need, but it wasn't like super detail oriented. Like, I didn't call out edge cases where I was like users need to be able to log in.

So, what error message do you show is they enter the wrong password? What error message do you show if they enter the email address that's on our database? I like rarely shared these edge cases and being at Oscar because there are a lot more users using your product. You have to design for multiple endpoints, right? If things don’t work or if this user has like it's a mom and their kids on the plan, right?

That's all about how does…how do like multifamily log in to certain things. I think in hindsight, I learnt so much about how I could have done product even better from working at Oscar. The same thing goes the other way direction, you know, like I was surprised by several things that Oscar that was so hard to do that was super easy before.

Jeremy Au: (27:35)

Do you have any examples of what that is?

Hannah Yang: (27:37)

Yeah, yes. I thought I could just go into work. So, I owned a provider portal which doctor offices used to interact with Oscar. So, I thought like, okay, that's going to be like before. If I need to figure out what customers need, I just go and call them or I email them and I go to their office and I ask them.

But at Oscar I learnt that I have to work with marketing, to schedule user research studies, have to get legal to approve incentives to give people gift cards. PM’s don't just walk outside and go to people's offices to ask them questions, to gather research like user insights, it’s like a 4 to 6 week process, sometimes even longer, which I was very surprised. Like I didn't expect that that was something I was very surprised by.

Jeremy Au: (28:28)

Yeah. Things move a lot slower when you're not the founder and making the call there. On that note, could you share about time when you personally were BRAVE?

Hannah Yang: (28:37)

I was in San Francisco and I moved to New York because my partner was in New York City. So, I moved to a new city and also, at the same time, was switching careers. When you switch careers, you usually you need to lean on your network a lot more, right? So, like it would have been much easier for me to switch in the PM and an asset because I have a big network there.

So, it's about switching career and moving to a new city at the same time and like winding down my business, I felt like it was a lot of big changes all at once. New City, new gig, winding down another gig…that wasn't just a gig. It was like your business. So, at that time I think I just had to put on my game face and hustle.

I didn't only contact my like second connectors and first connectors. I asked the first connector to connect me to a second connector who then referred me to their companies. It's like a weak type, but I did everything I could to get intros and referrals and feel the brain power...just taking all of these changes on all at once and believing that it's like you can go through with it.

Jeremy Au: (29:43)

That makes a lot of sense. I think that's interesting because you had to shift cities and obviously, you know, you had a partner involved in the decision as well. Can you share with us some of the reality of that?

Hannah Yang: (29:55)

I feel like lots of ups and downs. Some days you feel really good, right? You got someone to intro you to a company and some days you got a ton of rejections that you question like, can I really do this? Maybe I should move back and do this in San Francisco. Or maybe I should not be a PM…never reach a point where I gave up or didn't go forward.

I think the thing was always moving more positively rather than a ton of negatives. And I think one thing I was very mindful of was every interview I messed up on, I would call a PM friend and ask him or her like, How would you have answered this question? So that every interview I was improving. I didn't take the first couple of rejections as in like I wasn't good enough, I just took them as a learning opportunity.

And the most important part is to improve. So, I asked people for feedback and I asked what they would have done. So, it was just moving positively. I ended up, I think, landing a gig in probably like eight or ten weeks. It was within my timeline, I got it before December, so it was within a timeframe that I gave myself.

It wasn't like I went over and had to rethink my strategy.

Jeremy Au: (31:05)

When that move happened. Obviously, you mentioned that you had a partner as well. How is your partner involved in all these decisions? Good and bad.

Hannah Yang: (31:15)

He was so supportive. So, he was going to grad school here, so he let me stay at his place, which was so helpful because I was low on runway and I was looking for a new gig he didn't give me like, you only stay here for two weeks. He didn't give me like a time box or anything, you know?

It was just like being supportive about helping me find a gig. And then when I was winding down, I was crying, he was one of the person I called the most when I was feeling down. So that was so helpful. So super, super supportive, partner.

Jeremy Au: (31:46)

Awesome. Well, on that note, I’ll love to kind of paraphrase, I think, the three big themes that I've got from this conversation.

The first, thank you so much is sharing I think the founder to the PM journey. So why did you decide to be a founder? Was it like as a founder? What was it like to decide to kind of like phase down the start up? What was it like to grieve and talk about the transition to PM, how you got prepared, how you became a PM and what you learnt as a PM, both the good and the bad versus being a startup founder? So, I love that whole transition and walkthrough. So that was really helpful.

The second, thank you so much is sharing what I call that grief time box and how you went through that on a personal experience, but also having the time box that in a very deliberate and structured way in order to be reflective obviously of the actual runway and also of the reality of the world that you had to handle.

Lastly, I think, thank you so much for sharing that professional advice around how to structurally change the way you change your language, but also the approach and your resumé and your interview process so that you're actually able to make that leap from the founder to a non-founder role and within that context of non-founder roles to be a PM. So, thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge of everybody today.

Hannah Yang: (33:03)

Absolutely. I'm so happy to be here and thank you for asking so many thoughtful questions.