“I think the best deal you can strike is always a win-win. If a deal is imbalanced on one side of the equation, it’s eventually not a good deal. You have to understand that this relationship is something you need to build—build trust, maintain it, and, especially during a crisis, know how to manage it. Is the VC going to wire more money to help the company, or are they just going to disappear? This helps founders like us identify the right partners. For example, before I said yes to Iterative, I specifically called a founder who had recently folded his business after going through Iterative. I asked him, “What did Iterative do for you?” He said, “Oh my God, they even had a call with me to make sure I was okay. They walked me through steps one, two, three, four, five, and what I could do next.” They even offered potential roles to help me stay afloat while I figured out my next steps. That level of support left a lasting impression.” - Jingjing Zhong, co-founder and CEO of Superbench
“Recently, we noticed clients returning to the WhatsApp channel asking, “Is Chris working today?” They assume Chris is human because Chris, the AI, doesn’t use templates—unlike human agents, who rely on them. Ironically, consumers now think human agents are AI, and AI is human. The confusion is fascinating. As businesses grow, customer support teams typically adopt templates to ensure consistent communication. But AI doesn’t need templates, which gives it a more natural, conversational feel, leaving consumers unsure of who—or what—they’re talking to.” - Jingjing Zhong, co-founder and CEO of Superbench
“Recently, a friend of mine went to the US to fundraise, and the general consensus he shared was that US investors are much nicer. When they say no, they provide proper reasons and even offer advice to help you improve. In contrast, in Southeast Asia, investors are more likely to ghost you. Even if they’ve invested, some will talk behind your back if things don’t go well. There’s often a “no-win” mindset here: if they give you money, they expect results, or you’re as good as dead. It’s a transactional approach with little willingness to support founders through challenges. In the US, investors tend to be genuinely willing to help and create win-win situations.” - Jingjing Zhong, co-founder and CEO of Superbench
JingJing Zhong, the Co-founder and CEO of Superbench and Jeremy Au discussed:
AI Impact on Service Businesses: JingJing explained how AI advancements have transformed traditional service industries. Previously, AI struggled with logic and calculations, making it unreliable for tasks like generating service quotes. Now, improved reasoning allows AI to think through multi-step processes, reducing human workload and increasing efficiency. Superbench helps businesses like cleaning and plumbing services scale without needing more employees. She shared how her former company, Helpling, reduced its sales team from five agents to one while increasing conversion rates from 30% to 70%.
CRM vs. RAG Reality: JingJing pointed out that traditional CRM systems don't integrate well with AI-driven customer support. She introduced Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) as a way to improve AI accuracy by linking responses to verified business knowledge before generating answers. Many AI chatbots still struggle with anything beyond FAQs and simple transactions, particularly in handling complaints. She predicts AI will advance even faster in the next two years, further reshaping service industries. Customers now assume AI agents are human because AI responses feel more natural than scripted templates used by actual employees.
Founder Productivity Lifestyle: JingJing reflected on how managing stress as a founder led her to restructure her daily habits. She quit alcohol, shifted to a healthier diet with more vegetarian meals, and committed to consistent journaling. She noted that these changes had a direct impact on her business performance, saying that after quitting alcohol, her sales "went crazy." She emphasized the importance of therapy for founders, citing YC President Gary Tan’s advice: “Do therapy before you start a company.” She believes founders should address their fears and anxieties early to avoid making poor decisions under pressure.
Jeremy and JingJing also talked about startup fraud cases like eFishery, the effects of investor ghosting in Southeast Asia, and cultural differences in venture capital practices between the U.S. and Southeast Asia.
(01:05) Jeremy Au: Hey Jingjing, how are you?
(01:06) JingJing: Good. How are you, Jeremy?
(01:07) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Well you know, you had a really popular episode when we interviewed you about a year plus ago, being a female founder of an AI startup, tackling services, in Southeast Asia. So people wanted a sequel and so when the people request something you know, we shall deliver or in this case I shall ask questions and you will answer them.
(01:25) JingJing: We'll do it together.
(01:26) Jeremy Au: Yeah, we'll do it together and we're in person. So Jingjing, for those who don't know you yet how would you describe yourself?
(01:32) JingJing: I'm the founder and CEO of Superbench. We help traditional businesses like cleaning, plumbing, home services, or any service business to automate their backend operations with AI.
(01:44) So instead of, as they grow previously, they will have to hire a lot more people, train people over and over again. Now they can just. Scale their existing workforce with AI. That's what we do.
(01:56) Jeremy Au: Amazing. And I think what's interesting about this process is (02:00) that, you know, over the past year AI has, you know, grown tremendously, right?
(02:03) I mean, obviously they've improved the models. It seems like there's even more and more money being pushed out. Yes. A lot of Chinese models are coming out. So how would you describe like the big teams or what's the big differences of AI over the past one year?
(02:15) JingJing: Oh, I think One big thing is definitely the reasoning part.
(02:19) So previously, you know, AI is just like one shot answering your question. Now, before it gives you the answer, it will really think through and go through steps before giving you the answer. So that's why we see the answer nowadays a lot more relevant instead of just pure, confidently hallucinate.
(02:37) Obviously moving forward now we can hear a lot more agents, you know, more task oriented. AI agents coming up. So I believe in 2025 is going to accelerate even faster.
(02:49) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Amazing. I think that's definitely true, you know, for myself, one of my side hobbies is I've been writing like this sci fi book on the side and you know, it's been interesting because.
(02:58) I started about a year ago and like, (03:00) exactly like you said I'm trying to measure the distance between here and Proxima Centauri b, which is a planet, you know, far away. And there was a time distance and et cetera, et cetera. And last time you used to, I wouldn't say hallucinate, but you gave one answer.
(03:12) And now this time around, I started thinking through, we can see how to step by steps when you pay for it. But how has that translated in terms of business? How do you see that translating to the application side?
(03:20) JingJing: Yeah. So one big thing previously is that building agents was initially when we first started, it was GPT
(03:27) 3.
(03:28) JingJing: Building agents with GPT 3 was a pure experiment, back then Lama Index and LingQing just came out. So we have to try a lot more things and try different models. For example, for our clients our AI's job is to help them to scope and provide a quote.
(03:44) And it's not just super simple, like if you buy a book, it's 20. You're buying a service. So what kind of service are you buying? you're buying a cleaning of your home, and also curtain cleaning. Now, home is quote by square footage. So you need to do a math and (04:00) curtains to quote by how many pieces and the weight.
(04:02) So a lot of times this math requires logic and also obviously math and as horrible at it.
(04:08) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I mean, if you ask it to do calculations in the past, it was horrible at doing it and he couldn't. Carry the result from one step to the next step.
(04:16) JingJing: Exactly, exactly. But now as the model gets better, obviously it's a lot more accurate.
(04:22) It's a lot more faster and we can do a lot more like complicated quotation. For example if you want to book something that's Let's say a move out clean plus air con plus curtains on a Saturday, which there's surcharge. And on top of that, you want to book a moving, then you get a 30 percent discount.
(04:40) And on top of that, there's a GST that we can calculate that very easily as well.
(04:45) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Fantastic. And I think what's interesting is that, you know, you're going through this process and, you know, does it show us like a more wow experience for your customers or how does it show up? Was it because it's more efficient and it's the same product?
(04:57) From the customer's perspective.
(04:59) JingJing: So my (05:00) customers are businesses, right? For them, they see direct p and l impact. So give you an example. One of my bigger client, you can guess who helping. So previously your ex company. Got it. Yes. My ex, I was like, I wouldn't have
(05:13) Jeremy Au: Okay.
(05:14)
(05:14) JingJing: So my ex company previously have about five, six. Sales agents sitting behind their homepage WhatsApp because on daily basis, they have a lot of sales inquiries, a couple hundred to thousands five, six full time people sitting behind it and converting about 20, 30%. Now, one person plus AI converting 70%.
(05:34) That's like. Cost reduction and revenue increase increment. So they don't have to spend so much money on marketing anymore. You see direct translation in business results. And from the end consumer, so same thing. So Helplink, their AI is called Chris. Recently, we found clients coming back to the WhatsApp channel asking, Is Chris working today?
(05:57) They think Chris is human because (06:00) Chris doesn't use templates, but human use
(06:02) templates.
(06:04) JingJing: So they think human agents are AI, but AI is not, is human.
(06:08) Jeremy Au: So
(06:09) JingJing: consumers are confused. And then we just found that very interesting. You know, we're like, yeah, you're right. As your business grow. All your customer support agents use templates because you want to make sure, you know, they all talk the same thing,
(06:21) Jeremy Au: but
(06:22) JingJing: AI does not.
(06:23) Jeremy Au: That's so funny. And I think it's interesting because, you know, you're talking about something that's quite interesting, which is that you know, what's interesting is that when humans were doing everything themselves, they sounded very human. Then as we became more and more mechanized, obviously humans started using templates because it's impossible to cope.
(06:38) Yes. And then now. AI used to be the templates and now they sound more human than humans at scale. Yes. Which is interesting. So what does that mean, I guess? Do you, I mean, I guess meeting about for your business, I guess you think AI is gonna get better and better in the next five years, 10 years?
(06:54) JingJing: I think next two years.
(06:55) Jeremy Au: Yeah.
(06:56) JingJing: And what that means is that For service business when they use (07:00) AI they can see directly in the PNL, right? So that allows them to run much faster, allow them to have an edge really an advantage to really What we call whack the market much faster versus businesses that's hesitant and using this technology Still want to do things in the old traditional way.
(07:18) I think they might still have a place in the market However, I think they're probably just gonna stay put as it is.
(07:26) Jeremy Au: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is that you're making a set decisions based on the assumption that AI will get better? Because I think one big difference is, you know, if you think about example, like FinTech several years ago, everybody was like, you know, we all know what the tech is.
(07:40) It's all about the business model innovation and getting in because we know, what the roadmap is, what to be done, but now there's a little bit of like a sensation that there's a hockey shape, right? To the AI curve. And so people are like, okay. Maybe we should build a business model that's based on where the AI is, how it's going, right?
(07:57) So I'm just kind of curious how you think about that.
(07:59) JingJing: Very good (08:00) question. This is something that we, every three months, our team talk about. Should we wait or should we build right now? So initially when we first started, we know we want to build an operating system to power the service business, but we want to use AI to automate tasks on this platform.
(08:17) So the question is, which part do we build first? So we're thinking, okay, we want to have our own mold. So we need to build the CRM slash counter management system first. but at the same time, I feel like I don't want to just build another service Titan or jobber, right? Let's hire someone in Indonesia, super cheap, 3, 000, two months, build it, right?
(08:37) Okay. We built a super quickly. And then we can optimize even more, but let's say, okay, 80 percent done. Let's just park it there. It's functional. It's working. Now we start investing more on the AI side. And then the moment we work on it, we realized, Oh, wow, like now is probably the better time to invest in.
(08:53) If we started three months earlier, we probably going to burn through that three months of money and we're not going to make any progress because back then the (09:00) foundation model is just not there. And we were lucky enough to spend that time building the operating system first. And now when we fully focus on AI side, then we start adding more agents, start adding observability, start using lang chain, all these stuff, and then that start improving.
(09:16) And we start having more clients using this part of things and we realize now we need to link them up. Now, the moment you link AI agents with traditional operating system, that's where the problem is.
(09:27) AI
(09:28) JingJing: works very well with unstructured data. I'm going to give you a super wild example. Okay, in an extreme case, let's say tomorrow Grab launches Grab Concierge.
(09:38) You can book anything through Concierge. You want to book, Grab Eats? And grab car at the same time. Okay? You can just tell her, I want Thai food from Thai 123. I also want a car from home to Changi Airport in the meantime. Okay? Something like this. So they can execute this for you, right? But if you think about the app experience.
(09:59) You have to first go to (10:00) GrabEats, place your order, jump out, go to GrabCar, submit another form. Two forms, right? That's structured data. But conversation language is unstructured. You can write both two tasks in one sentence. Now, how do they dispatch this in the backend? Right? Human, we know, is submitting two forms.
(10:18) Now, if you need to instruct The technology to do this, you need to change your fundamental data structure. That's when we realized, ah, it doesn't match. Good that we only spent 3, 000. Now let's put our focus back to that part.
(10:32) And
(10:33) JingJing: we realized before we built the operating system, there's something else we need to work on even more.
(10:38) It's the rack process. So this is what we realized. bread and butter to working with SMEs because this is the record, a system of record, the knowledge base. That's not part of the traditional LM. It would never be because individual business knowledge. Then how do we build a rack system that allows SMEs to play?
(10:58) Whenever I (11:00) onboard a client, they don't have SOP. They don't have knowledge base. They only have WhatsApp
(11:04) templates.
(11:05) JingJing: So how do I extract that? And put it in a rack and then let's say we come with chunking strategy, you know, like tag everything and allow AI agents to start automating tasks for them.
(11:16) This is something that we want to do because SMEs, they will never be able to do it.
(11:20) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And what do you mean is a rack system? Do you mean it's like a template or a system of work that lets them be able to. Clear well with the agents.
(11:29) JingJing: So basically what rag does is it's a retrieval process that optimize the output.
(11:37)
(11:37) LLMs,
(11:37) JingJing: Because a lot of times the input data is not sitting with the existing LM foundation model. So you need to refer to something that's outside of the foundation model to have the right output for that specific environment.
(11:52) Jeremy Au: Now. Yeah. The RAG model. Yes, exactly.
(11:55) JingJing: So that's where, you know, like, let's say you have authority over this new (12:00) knowledge, right?
(12:00) Now you have to embed this in like a. But you want LM to before giving you the output, refer to this first, then change your output and then give the final output. So that's what we call rack process based on. My business mind, how I understood it. All the engineers are like, Oh,
(12:18) Jeremy Au: this is horrible.
(12:19) JingJing: SMEs, they understand.
(12:20) It's like, Oh, think about it. Like there's a main library and I create a sub library for you. Before we walk through all the libraries, I make sure my AI always walk through your library first.
(12:30) Jeremy Au: That's a good analogy to do. So, you know, how have you explained it? Do people, you know, consumers, I think about a year ago, most SMEs were kind of like, I don't know what AI is.
(12:42) And just you know, last night, you know, my mom was asking me about how to use AI and you know, take photos with it. So I think it's starting to percolate to that age group of SME owners, right? So 50, 60 year old age group. But I mean, how do they think about AI nowadays from your perspective?
(12:57) JingJing: I think everyone have heard of the word (13:00) AI and it's been overused now.
(13:02) So a lot of time when I show the SMEs are agents, they're like, Oh, this is so smart. But what they don't know is that as a generative AI company, AI first approach, I think this is the bare minimum that they have to showcase to the client. How I'm going to use their technology, how I ensure AI does not hallucinate.
(13:20) So what, they always ask me question, can your AI say this, can your AI say that? The answer is always yes, because now when we say AI, we're talking about large language model, right? It's very good at language. But what's harder? It's to limit the environment to make sure you always say the right thing.
(13:39) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I gotcha. Well, I know what you were saying now, which is that you know, from a demo perspective, they're always impressed by the technology, but the actual implementation, which is like making sure you don't quote somebody the wrong number, or the wrong number of carpets. You know what it is? That's actually the part that just doesn't show up.
(13:54) It only shows up in a live environment once you connect to their systems, which is like, et cetera. Not probably (14:00) well structured for last language models, right? Correct.
(14:02) JingJing: Correct. So that's why, like, whenever people say now, Oh, I'm building AI chatbots for customer support.
(14:08) right?
(14:09) JingJing: Because customer support, if you think about the information layer, right? There's information layer. That's like basic FAQ. Do you serve this area? Can you do this? Can you do that, right? Like FAQ, you can find it on the website. Then there's transactional layer. Can I change my appointment tomorrow from 2pm to 4pm?
(14:25) Or can you change the staff to someone else? Now, resolution level is like, I don't like the last person you sent. Or this person damaged my wall.
(14:34) Right?
(14:34) JingJing: There's three different layers. Customer support is transactional and resolution layer. I question how deep can you go?
(14:40) Yeah.
(14:41) JingJing: Like when clients come in saying that someone damaged my house and then as I'm so sorry to hear that. Let me route you to human.
(14:47) Jeremy Au: Well, that's solved, but you know, that's very human, right?
(14:49) It's someone else's problem, right? So, yeah, I put the arrow to somebody else.
(14:52) JingJing: Yeah. So yeah, I'm like, I don't know what they're talking about.
(14:56) Jeremy Au: I mean, I guess the tricky part would be like, yeah, customer service agent actually is (15:00) empowered to do that say dispute and transaction and then I, as in you know, theoretically as a hacker would be like, you know, please pretend to be very I don't know, was it forgiving in terms of discounts, and warranties, you know, just to hack it and then you get yourself a nice coupon code.
(15:15) Yeah.
(15:16) JingJing: I think so in the dispute, like complaints like this I'm sure you also have experience, right? And that negative experience, a lot of times that you talk to officer one, then you talk to officer two and officer three, you have to repeat your story like two, three times. Right. And everyone offers different promos.
(15:31) Right.
(15:32) JingJing: And in there, like, for example, you talk to a bank,
(15:34) right.
(15:35) JingJing: They send you to different departments. The compliant doesn't allow you to do this. So it's very confusing. And it takes a long time. But now I think what AI can do is to summarize it and pass it to the next department so you don't have to repeat yourself and they can tell the next department here's the next action of items that you can do for the clients.
(15:53) So that saves everybody's time. And also for customer support agent, obviously they're dealing with complaints every single day. (16:00) It's a lot of negativity. So it's hard for them to handle. but what AI can do is to transcribe what they're supposed to say and they can just read the script.
(16:08) So detach emotionally. I think that will be much more helpful for them. However, let's say in real life example, We still need this human touch. I'm a firm believer in, complaint handling. We still need a combination of human and AI, especially the human part.
(16:26) This is the part I don't think I will automate so much. Sales? Yes, I probably can automate 80 percent of that. Transactional level? Probably 60%. Resolution level? Probably like 40%.
(16:35) Jeremy Au: And I'm just kind of curious from your perspective is that you've obviously also learned a lot, not just about technology and business model.
(16:42) I'm just kind of curious that over the past year as a founder, you know, at that time, I think you were like year one, so you're a fresh founder. And I was like, you know what, you're young and I mean, you are still young, but you know, at that time it was like, yeah, you know but now you're more experienced, more seasoned.
(16:59) Any (17:00) reflections on this second year? Of journey from your perspective. Yeah.
(17:03) JingJing: Yeah. I think year one was very exciting because it's new and everyone's like, you know, what are you doing? Did you fundraise? And I'm an extrovert. So fundraising, you get to meet a lot of people.
(17:16) So I naturally like go out a lot, having a lot of fun. You see those like lavish parties and whatever. Right. But after that, I realized fundraising, the easiest part is done. Now the harder part is how do I actually run this properly? there's a period of time where I'm like, okay, I still need to.
(17:33) I'm going to be a nice portfolio founder to my investor when they me to do things. I'll do it versus, do I want to just reject all of those and spend 100 percent of the time focusing on my business? Right. So now I'm more leaning towards focusing on my business. And I realized the moment I'm sick or I'm not feeling well, That day I can't think, or I cannot think for a couple of days then business is stagnant and I can't (18:00) feel it.
(18:00) And then when that happens in the second week, I get anxiety. It's like, Oh, what did you do last week? Nothing. have you done any writings? No, my brain, I have brain fog. Then it's like, I wouldn't say I'm running out of time, but it feel like. I feel the pressure on myself that I need to deliver more, I can't deliver more.
(18:19) So that's when I decided that, you know what, let's stay more grounded, more consistent. And it's this consistency that I have to deliver to myself. I need to be extremely disciplined.
(18:30) Right.
(18:30) JingJing: So yeah, that's why I made some life changes, you know like have a very fixed time biological clock, quit alcohol, eat healthier being vegetarian, three, four times a week, doing all these things to make sure I have less stress, less anxiety.
(18:47) And I'm waking up In a very positive, excited way, not like fearfully excited, you know, that kind of motivation. Yeah. And so far I think it's been doing a lot of good.
(18:59) Jeremy Au: Yeah. (19:00) Wow. I mean, everybody agrees about, you know, like eating more vegetarian energy levels. I think it's so important. And, you know, I've been a founder several times and, you know, you're absolutely exhausted all the time.
(19:11) So you really don't want to spend it on something that's not very good. But what's interesting is you said you've quit alcohol. So there's a big word because you sound like a health nut. So you know, what do you think about that? What's the rationale behind alcohol? I think because, you know, everything else is kind of like, yeah, everybody's like, yeah, you should exercise and everything.
(19:27) JingJing: Yeah, I think number one, I actually been talking to my therapist about alcohol for many, many years, I am aware that it's been a big part of my life ever since the banking days.
(19:39) Jeremy Au: Oh yeah.
(19:39) JingJing: Recently I have a friend, well I wouldn't acquaint him that I met long time ago in banking. He quit banking a while ago.
(19:47) He, like when he was a VP in banking, he visited Singapore and we're just doing some walks outside of MBS. After like 30 minutes, he's like, you want to go to a bar, grab a drink.
(19:57) And
(19:57) JingJing: I was immediately like, huh? (20:00) Like I actually have this thought. I want to drink with him. and then he suddenly started saying things like, you know, like you still have the banking.
(20:08) You know, this habit. I'm like, yeah. And he's a, yeah, it's still a problem for me. Every day I need a drink. Cause in banking is like every day, 6 PM you drink and you go back to the office to power through. So I was like, this is not me. This is a habit from my last job. Do I want this? Right? Like what we're just talking about.
(20:27) You get instant happiness a little bit, but on the second day you just feel. Don't feel good. And that's when I start proper, like seriously think about what do I want to do with this part? And ever since I decided to be a little bit more disciplined, I feel like this is going to be a challenge I have to take.
(20:45) And the moment I quit alcohol, my sales went crazy.
(20:48) Jeremy Au: That's like tagline for alcoholic anonymous. It's going to be like, stop drinking, double your sales.
(20:54) JingJing: yes. Quit alcohol, double your sales.
(20:56) Jeremy Au: public safety announcement. You know, I think it's interesting cause you know, I've been a (21:00) similar boat where, you know, I think for me, you know, as a founder, I always worked like six days a week.
(21:04) And then obviously Sunday was like barely a break by at least it was there. And I was just like, you know, I just don't have time to. Drink at night and then have a hangover in the morning or whatever it was, right? And so, especially when you have an early start or whatever it is. So totally understand that.
(21:19) I guess the other angle that, you know, obviously now that I'm, you know, the COO for a cancer biotech startup, it's actually interesting because, you know, cancer is driven by alcohol, actually. The current scientific literature says that, you know, every job of alcohol Is carcinogenic. So it's not, remember that all the advice to be like, drink one glass of, you know, wine a day.
(21:38)
(21:38) JingJing: Go for your heart.
(21:39) Jeremy Au: yeah, they kind of debunk that on two ways, which is like, you know, the polyphenols and the OLS and virtual probably helpful. Yeah. but the alcohol part is definitely not so honestly drink, I don't know, what's the word? De alcohol, ice wine, you know.
(21:53)
(21:53) JingJing: there a thing?
(21:53) Jeremy Au: It is a thing in the U. S. yeah, yeah. So this is wine and they remove the alcohol from it and then
(21:58) JingJing: get the
(21:58) Jeremy Au: sensation and everything.
(21:58) JingJing: So grape juice (22:00) then?
(22:00) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I guess so, but less sweet, more complexity I would say, more of the ripening and maturation
(22:05) process.
(22:07) Jeremy Au: Yeah. But that's, but you know, in SF and I'll say West Coast now, a lot of folks actually are not drinking alcohol anyway.
(22:12) I was at the Scale AIHQ and they had a alcohol bar and a non alcohol bar and yeah.
(22:18) JingJing: Very nice. That's going to be my dream. Have my own HQ with a non alcoholic bar and alcohol bottles.
(22:24) Jeremy Au: actually, you know, after this, I'll show you my non alcoholic collection as well. I'm going to get a sample. They're actually pretty good.
(22:29) I mean, they're like, 80 percent there.
(22:32) Yeah.
(22:32) Jeremy Au: But you know, I guess what I do miss about alcohol is like the pure alcohol events.
(22:37) Yes.
(22:38) Jeremy Au: So it's like, I don't know, whiskey and cigars that I'm like, always see that. I was like, Oh, you know, like what's with you know, drinking and shisha. Yes.
(22:45) But unfortunately tobacco is also not good for you as well.
(22:49) JingJing: Yeah.
(22:50) Jeremy Au: So, yeah,
(22:50) JingJing: I think. There's priority of things, right? Like at this point of time, I definitely want to prioritize my career And my (23:00) health and mental health and wellness supports this goal.
(23:04) So if that part is not taken care of, this priority cannot be met.
(23:08) Right.
(23:08) JingJing: Maybe, you know let's say two years, I build a unicorn. Yes. Then you guys see me partying. Okay. well, career might still be my priority then, but I'll prioritize having fun more. Yeah.
(23:18) Jeremy Au: sense.
(23:18) JingJing: So, yeah.
(23:19) Jeremy Au: And I think what's interesting about this entire process is that, you know, obviously you're focusing, I guess, to some extent, not necessarily more on work, but understanding the sacrifices that have to be made in order to have that, you know, peak productivity, right? Yes. Very long time. Because anybody can peak productivity for one year and drink alcohol and have fun, but now you're entering year two, going to year three, year four.
(23:41) I'm just kind of curious, what other sacrifices or what other trade offs have you seen yourself make as a founder? That non founders may not be fully aware of, right?
(23:49) JingJing: Yeah. I start setting my boundaries a lot. I hold my boundaries very dearly now. Previously I would say yes to a lot of (24:00) meetings.
(24:00) Cause I feel like, okay, I got a lot of help doing fundraising. I need to give back as much as I can. But now I feel like that part is pretty much done unless it's someone let's say from the Berkley club like a really good friend refer. I'll definitely sit down have a coffee chat with them Otherwise, I would try to cut those shorter or even try to avoid
(24:19) them
(24:20) JingJing: If people are just still tinkering they're like, hey, I don't know if I want to start my business or not Let's say if there's a group of us having a meal happy to have chit chat but sometimes I think some part of a conversation that would just It's too much suck off my energy.
(24:34) And I believe for those questions, it's better off for those people to go to therapy or counseling or a coach.
(24:40) Jeremy Au: So I was crying. It really sad. And it's like coming after you and be like,
(24:45) JingJing: yeah, it's like recently someone was messaging me about, Hey, I don't know if I should start a company. I have a question about setting up a business in Singapore.
(24:53) Well, you can Google it. How to register a business in Singapore. He's like, but I'm American. I was like, well, same thing. You can (25:00) still do it, but I'm on EP. We'll get your employer's approval. But you know, there's a lot of, but right.
(25:06) so you're not ready. No, I'm ready. But I'm not sure I'm willing to let go of the stability. So you have fear of uncertainties,
(25:14) right?
(25:14) JingJing: So like you see, if you go down deeper it's basically fear of not having a stable life and in his internal core is Uncertain about himself.
(25:26) He's not confident. So, yeah, I'm very direct when they come to have, conversation with me like this. I'm not going to handhold them. You're scared of this. but I also don't want to spend too much time doing that anymore. Because I feel like there's bigger mission and bigger priority in my life and I need to preserve my energy for those.
(25:46) Jeremy Au: Right. Makes sense. And you know, when you think about all of that, you know, what is one piece of advice you would like to give to people who are like, I guess, aspiring to be founders, you know, in that boat. I mean, you (26:00) know, and maybe what you can do is, you know, you can always forward this episode to them, you know, whenever they ask you a question.
(26:05) But what's your, you know, most brutal, direct feedback, I guess? How would you do it?
(26:10) JingJing: Yes. I like to quote Gary Tan.
(26:13) Jeremy Au: Mm. YC president.
(26:15) JingJing: Do therapy before you start a company.
(26:18) I forgot what he said, what word by word, but I think he said something about have a decent amount of therapy sessions. Not even like one. Decent amount of therapy sessions before you start a company. And I'm so glad helping. Is the, you know, employer, my previous employer, they gave me resources to allow me to do that.
(26:37) That allows me to be a better manager, but also I start to discover myself, you know, a lot more. Why am I, who am I as a person and also what do I actually like? But yeah, because of that experience, now when I start my own company, I have a very stable core and foundation.
(26:52) Right.
(26:53) JingJing: I know what I'm fearful of my weakness, my strength, all of that, but I can see a lot of founders.
(26:59) (27:00) Their motivation is very dark. I don't know if you've seen them. And also some of them, they're perpetually in this like negativity or some of them, they are constantly in a very anxious, like very up there anxious. When you talk to them, you can see them shaking.
(27:14) Right.
(27:14) JingJing: Right. When I see them, I feel sorry.
(27:18) But at the same time, you can't be directly to tell people that, Hey, you need to see a therapist. I do say that to my close friends. Yeah. But for people who you just met, when they talk to you, I'm very excited to be here. It's like, you're okay.
(27:33) Jeremy Au: So now if you forward this episode to them, they're like, Oh no, she's saying that I'm anxious. But no, I actually agree with you, right? Because. I feel like, you know, having built two businesses along the way and now part of a third high growth startup, there's a lot of anxiety and there's a lot of fear because literally everything is like breaking all the time and something bad is happening all the time.
(27:49) Yeah.
(27:50) Jeremy Au: So, if you can like fix yourself before it all starts breaking down around you in terms of the company, it's actually a good timing to do so, right? Rather than you know, but I think I've seen the (28:00) opposite, which is a lot of founders who are very stressed out and then they enter.
(28:03) Therapy because things go really bad. Co founder conflict.
(28:06) JingJing: yes. it's more like they go straight to the clinic versus they're going to the gym.
(28:11) Jeremy Au: Ah, interesting.
(28:12) JingJing: very different kind of mindset. I don't think we can be fixed mentally cause we all grew up in certain environment, you know, some trauma that we carry.
(28:21) Even you inherit trauma from your parents generation, right? But there are always ways to improve yourself. And I realized every single breakthrough that I have, my career, my creativity go to the next level.
(28:33) Right.
(28:34) JingJing: And it's so positively correlated. I can see it in my journal. I was just starting a new journal book and each year I have this habit just to read through my old journal.
(28:45) It's so funny. I went from initially, I like pizza. I did not like that noodle to now I'm just writing very lengthy things, asking myself why, why, why, why, why 10, 20 times. It's just very empowering experience and (29:00) self reflection itself. Therapy is part of that, but journaling is also like you coaching yourself from that point on.
(29:07) Right. So, it's very empowering, but also you learn a lot more about yourself, your business, how you make decisions, what you get triggered what's your default coping mechanism, things like that. So. Yeah, it's, it's very helpful.
(29:20) Jeremy Au: And when did you start this journaling habit? Do you write every day?
(29:24)
(29:24) JingJing: I started back then when I had crazy anxiety at Helplink. Cause it's very rocket internet style. If you're growing, why are you not profitable? If you're profitable, why are you not growing fast enough, right? So it's always never enough. So back then I, every day I wake up first thing I need to throw up cause I had crazy anxiety.
(29:42) Then I start journaling, I start seeing more therapists but then it start just becoming like a channel for me to vent. It's a very healthy way because my emotion does not impact another person. So I just like, if I'm angry. I'm just like, I'm fucking angry at blah, blah, (30:00) blah. Because he was so horrible to me.
(30:03) I feel disrespected, blah, blah, blah. After I feel better.
(30:06) Yeah.
(30:06) JingJing: You know, and then that person would never hear this. I don't have to shout at someone. I don't have to smash my glasses. Yeah, I found it very healthy. And then slowly it becomes a habit. Nowadays I don't journal every single night.
(30:19) But I still do it quite often.
(30:21) Jeremy Au: Fantastic. And do you have any advice for founders who want to journal more?
(30:26) JingJing: Yeah. Start from writing whatever you want to start writing.
(30:28) Jeremy Au: But what if I write it sucks?
(30:30) JingJing: yeah. Then write run on sentence.
(30:32) Jeremy Au: Yeah.
(30:32) JingJing: Like, I like pizza, apples, bananas, oranges, blah, blah, blah,
(30:37) Jeremy Au: How about, I hate my co founder. He is a horrible person. Does it sound like you're expressing more negativity onto the page?
(30:45) JingJing: Yeah, that's fine. Right? Because it goes to the page. It's not going to the person. And after you finish writing that, it's like Then you, when you start going deeper, I hate my co founder.
(30:56) Why? Because of he said that (31:00) he disagreed with my opinion. why, what part of the disagreement triggered you? Well, he said blah, blah, blah. So I feel he did not hear me out. Huh. So the root cause is you feel like you weren't heard. Is that why? Well, yes, because I feel like my opinion matters. So you think your opinion matters?
(31:21) While his opinion does not matter, is that why? Right? So you start going deeper and deeper. Then, well, eventually you can get there. But you do need to start writing. With like, this kind of gibberish. When I see my first journal book is full of those.
(31:33) Jeremy Au: Now I'm just like, how do I? Steal into your house, steal the journal.
(31:37) I'm like, so curious now, but smart because I think a digital journal could be hacked, I guess, by the internet.
(31:44) Yeah.
(31:44) Jeremy Au: And you know, when you think about this do you feel like today, you know, I've seen you several times, right? I met you when you are aspiring to be a founder. When you were looking for an idea, when you joined something and then you quit because you know, it wasn't the right thing and then you became a (32:00) founder and then now it's like your second year plus.
(32:03) Like do you feel like you're less stressed now or do you feel like you're more stressed now? How do you compare yourself? Because, you know, I guess an executive. Versus now, I guess, do you feel more stress, less stress, more in control? Yeah.
(32:15) JingJing: My stress level has decreased significantly, but I would not say it's not there.
(32:21) Yeah.
(32:21) JingJing: It comes and go.
(32:22) Yeah.
(32:22) JingJing: But now it's in a lot more controlled environment. I understand when to release my stress and also when to kind of like make me more motivated to do things. Cause I do feel like sometimes stress is good motivation factor to make sure, okay, I want to get this done by this week.
(32:40) Let's give myself some pressure. Let's take that challenge. Sometimes you need this kind of kick. But sometimes it's like, okay, that's too much before bedtime. Let's wind down.
(32:48) Right.
(32:49) JingJing: So I do think a stress level now. And I think my happiness, I wouldn't call it happiness.
(32:54) I'm much more at peace.
(32:56) Yeah.
(32:56) JingJing: I think I would rather be more peaceful than happy.
(32:59) All right. (33:00)
(33:00) JingJing: Yeah. And then I liked the current state a lot more than before.
(33:03) Jeremy Au: And when you think about the, current state. You know, obviously, we saw like, there was like this e fishery scandal that happened.
(33:11) Yes. and I think obviously a lot of people were shocked. I mean, I think at the start, everybody was kind of like, ah, maybe it's overvalued. I think that was like one to two years ago. And people are quite confused about why a fish farm productivity system, but obviously a lot of people were like championing it.
(33:25) And then. Obviously it became embezzlement and now it's full of fraud, right, where this person has like, you know, 80 or 90 percent of their revenues is, you know, inflated or fake, right? So I'm just kind of curious, what's the buzz across the founder community in terms of? Thinking about it.
(33:41) JingJing: Yeah, I do feel like so for example in the U. S. there's foreign IA.
(33:46) Yeah.
(33:46) JingJing: Right I used to do foreign IA, so in the U. S. So I'm very aware of how valuation's been come up, how we come up with valuation. And also I used to do due diligence for Series C, Series D startup. (34:00) So I know what kind of proper due diligence process you can go through.
(34:04) I've also been part of some litigation cases. Yeah. We are higher as a financial advisor to come up with a fair value for the court.
(34:12) Jeremy Au: Yeah.
(34:12) JingJing: So from my perspective, because I know how to do all of that, it's kind of hard for me to think how can founders fake this and how can investors not catch that?
(34:25) Jeremy Au: So you're saying that the investors should have caught this.
(34:27) Especially at a growth stage.
(34:29) JingJing: Do they not do 498 in APAC?
(34:31) Jeremy Au: I mean, you know, I think that's the tricky part is that, you know, having been both a founder who's gone through that stringent side on the US side and as a VC in Asia, talking to my peers, I would agree with you that the rhetorical question, which is, I would say that growth stage investors in Southeast Asia do less due diligence.
(34:50) Because of, I think, three reasons. I mean, first of all, of course, less operational history. So just don't have the talent, you know, hiring people who have never done it before. And so I think that's, you know, it's just (35:00) less experience with that. I think secondly I think there's, have been less burned before.
(35:05) So I think, you know, it's kind of like everybody assumes it's working and everything. Yeah. But, you know, theoretically there's fraud, but you know, it takes somebody to get fired or your, you know, peer fund to get burned before you're like, okay, this is really important for us to invest in.
(35:20) So not enough fairy tales that warn about the problem, about what actually can happen and how it can happen. So not enough urgency, because I think VCs are very focused on like looking for rocket ships and jumping the rocket ship, but not necessarily like. checking the hoods of a rocket ship.
(35:34) I think that's number two. And I think the third thing from the VC perspective is that there's a lot of physicality to the Southeast Asia ecosystem, but also a lot of embedded behaviors that are just like not really obvious if you're Not a local or maybe not as obvious if you're not willing to be physically present, right?
(35:54) So what I mean by that is like in the US a lot of these businesses that unicorns are like purely digital, right? So it's (36:00) very easy to be like give me access to your Stripe and your API calls and you're like, you know, there's a one to one correlation between your API calls volume versus your Stripe account versus your cash account, right?
(36:10) This is very easy to audit but I think for a lot of the physicality that's in Southeast Asia you know, like for example, fish farms, I'm pretty sure they didn't be, you know, first of all, I'm pretty sure payments were not done digitally by the fish farms because the payment infrastructure is bad in Indonesia.
(36:23) So you probably do some kind of cash reconciliation and that's a very easy way of faking numbers because you reconciled cash on a weekly, a monthly basis, as you imagine. Then you can imagine inflating revenues and expenses, you know, and then who's going to audit your fish feed farm supplier, you know, individual contracts.
(36:41) And then it's all in a different language. So I think, you know, I was just chatting with my fellow friends, and I was like, maybe it's not that the investors are bad, you know. Maybe it's that the bad actors in Indonesia are really good. You know, like, they're really good at, you know, pulling the books.
(36:53) And I think there is a joke, right, in Southeast Asia, right? in Singapore, there's one, set of books. In X country, which I won't mention in (37:00) case everyone's gonna jump on me and be like, there's three sets of books, but in Y country, there's five sets of books, right?
(37:06) So, you know, depending on whether it's a tax authority, the government politician, whether it's for the public news, whether it's for your actual management accounting, or whether it's for working with, some, American partner, right? I mean, that's the, you know, so I think there's also like a little bit of cultural norms.
(37:22) JingJing: Yeah, I guess, but at the same time, I feel like there's a trust but validate factor, right? I think for cases like this, it's like nobody was doing their job correctly. In the U. S., for example, my ex company called Hooley
(37:36) Lowkey,
(37:37) JingJing: we were doing portfolio evaluation every quarterly basis. Every single quarter, the portfolio team, they were just swamped.
(37:44) Right. Because they help, let's say, White Oak, those big P firms to look after every single portfolio. They have to revalidate the business. They have to get actual business cases and ask questions. And that thing does not cost you too much. Why don't you do that? Right. If you (38:00) just like set standard metrics, asking the founder to fill out.
(38:02) Yeah, sure. I'll fill out a hockey stick for you for two years. Right now, what are you going to do? Right. Well, but at the same time, There are definitely ways to check it in a very effective way. If you just spend this money, you know, every quarterly basis, spend, let's say, 20, 30k for a fund. That's a safety net for you.
(38:21) So, I think, well, because I've learned in the U. S., you know, from best practice sitting on the other side doing valuation. Now, when I don't see this in Southeast Asia, I don't know how do the funds actually answer to the LP.
(38:35) Jeremy Au: Well, I mean, I think the funds are finding it very hard to explain to the LPs now about what's going on.
(38:39)
(38:39) JingJing: Holy and Lowkey ,
(38:40) Jeremy Au: your ex-employer is very happy. Now. It's like, oh, thank goodness for treating my, you know, and being nice to my alumni employee. I'm just kind of curious, what do you think is the buzz amongst founders talking about it?
(38:51) JingJing: I have not talked about this to other founders.
(38:54) Yeah. Because most founders are either traveling or. We're just busy tinkering.
(38:58) Jeremy Au: Yeah,
(38:59) JingJing: we (39:00) haven't really talked about this.
(39:00) Jeremy Au: Interesting. Yeah. No, I think the founders that I've been talking to that have been primarily talking about it have been indonesian founders.
(39:07) I would say the Singaporean founders Who are a little bit more plugged in and worry about fundraising. all like does this depress Southeast Asia valuations? And the answer is yes. This has the chilling effect, I think for US Growth Station investors, About whether they should enter Southeast Asia for sure.
(39:21) Because this is not the first, right. We had lingo, and then we had Revolution pre crafted, which is the Philippines, and now we have fishery. It's like pretty much one every year. I think we have more unicorn frauds than actual unicorns in Southeast Asia.
(39:33) JingJing: my god. It's definitely not a good track record.
(39:36)
(39:36) Jeremy Au: record, right? I think Indonesia actually has a lot of large unicorn fraud cases as well. Yeah. But at least I think they have a larger stack of unicorns. Well, let's see.
(39:45) Yeah.
(39:46) Jeremy Au: How many of them are true unicorns in another one, two years. But you know, I think the perception is at least, you know, there's enough value.
(39:52) To invest versus that amount of fraud that does exist in the Indian ecosystem as an emerging market
(39:57) JingJing: Yeah, definitely. And then that's why I (40:00) also think about like when I saw the news, right? I was like, wow, like even big companies can have fraud like this imagine for these people who are looking for a job right now I want to join a startup Probably, I don't know, 50, 60 percent of fraud, right?
(40:14) Do your due diligence, not just when the business is big, but also when they're small.
(40:18) Yeah.
(40:19) JingJing: Because when they're small, it's so much easier to come up with this kind of fraudulent activity. You cover it up once, twice. Every single month, then that becomes a massive fraud.
(40:31) Jeremy Au: Yeah.
(40:31) JingJing: Yeah.
(40:31) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting because, you know, the founder was only doing fraud by 20 percent revenue at Series A.
(40:37) So he inflated revenue by 20%. Now it's become like 90 plus percent, you know, kind of like, I guess, four or five years later.
(40:44) JingJing: Yeah.
(40:44) Jeremy Au: But, you know, what do you think about that psychology?
(40:47) JingJing: it's just fear of failure.
(40:49) Yeah,
(40:50) JingJing: and then not willing to admit that okay, this is not what we're good at and potentially some investors were pressuring him
(40:57) Yeah,
(40:58) JingJing: so that he has to come up with something (41:00) that he feels like he has to do
(41:01) Yeah,
(41:02) JingJing: recently I have a friend who went to US to fundraise and the general consensus that US investors are a lot nicer.
(41:11) when they say no to you, they will give you proper reason and help you to improve versus Southeast Asia. They will ghost you.
(41:18) Yeah.
(41:19) JingJing: Or even if they invest it in you, they'll talk bad things behind your back. They're just so up there that there's no willing to help. There's no win win. You know, if I give you money, Then you better give me that LRI, otherwise you're as good as dead.
(41:34) This kind of mindset, you see it in Southeast Asia, they do behave like this. Versus in the U. S. is like genuinely willing to help. Recently I even talked to a Taiwan VC. They're not even my investor. Like, do you need market study for this? We just come up with a new study for our portfolio company. I'm like, yes.
(41:52) I was like, if there's any pages, you need more data or whatever, just let us know. I was like, can I have more of this? They sent me a brand new report on the second day. (42:00) They're not even my investor. It's like, that's how helpful they are over here. Southeast Asia is like. Give me, give me a report. Why haven't you deliver the sales?
(42:08) You know, well, obviously that's not my investor. My investors are very
(42:11) Jeremy Au: nice.
(42:11) JingJing: Yes, my investor, they're super helpful. But I did hear stories for other investors. They're not really helpful to the founders.
(42:19) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I mean, I myself have also seen a lot of investors who have ghosted startups in Southeast Asia.
(42:26) So I think it's definitely more prevalent, like investor ghosting is more prevalent as a percentage then compared to U. S.
(42:34) JingJing: and I think they need to be careful because their communities. Like Antler, Iterative, and you know, a whole bunch of other, let's say Appworks, right? People who went through Antler, some of them go to Iterative, some of them go to Appworks, each portfolio group have their own community.
(42:52) And these name, blacklisted investors, I've even seen lists like this fund, this (43:00) person do not talk to him for X, Y, Z reason I've seen it and before like when they messaged me, I know, okay, let's not deal with this person, right? We know this, we're not dumb founders talk to each other.
(43:13) We help each other. So I think they need to be a bit more careful.
(43:17) Jeremy Au: I agree with you actually, which is that I think. Investors need to understand that, the average founder, is kind of clueless about this.
(43:26) So they're not going to know who is a good VC or a below average VC, I would say. But the best founders know. Because the best founders who at least clear the checkpoints, right, you know, of, you know, accelerators, right. Or, you know, joint funds and with other founder communities, you know, they all tend to be at a certain level and they hang out with each other.
(43:45) All right. And then that's where the language. So, so I think some of the junior and especially middle VCs, I think the senior VCs kind of maybe don't have time, et cetera, so be it. But I would say a lot of VCs don't really understand that. They feel like they're getting (44:00) away with it, if that makes sense, by ghosting.
(44:02) But really, like, they are getting away with 95 percent of founders actually. It's just that the top 5 percent who are all plugged into each other and go to the same events and dinners are like, Yes. And so I think that's a big problem. And I think that's also particularly painful, I think, for growth stage investors as well.
(44:19) Because I think at the start of the process, if you're like a pre seed, a bad pre seed investor, sees a lot of people, so a lot of people have opinions, but then most pre seed startups are not very good by nature because you're still very early, you don't have product market fit. you have no team.
(44:34) So and also people are much more fragmented at that stage because people are still at their jobs, if that makes sense. But I think it's particularly painful at the Series A, Series B stage because, you know, every SEEDs founder, there's only How many SEED founders are in Southeast Asia? Like a hundred, let's just say?
(44:49) JingJing: Really?
(44:50) Jeremy Au: I would say so. I think there's only about
(44:51) JingJing: Wow.
(44:52) Jeremy Au: add, I mean, if you include people who have passed through Series A,
(44:55) JingJing: Yeah.
(44:56) Jeremy Au: Then I'm sure, you know, the cumulative will be higher, maybe several (45:00) hundred.
(45:00) JingJing: Wow.
(45:00) Jeremy Au: 100 series a founders. I mean, obviously by definition, maybe seed founders, maybe like a thousand, but you know, it's still a tight community relatively actually.
(45:08) JingJing: Yeah.
(45:09) Jeremy Au: Especially in Singapore.
(45:10) JingJing: we all know each other.
(45:10) Jeremy Au: know each other. so I think a lot of people forget that as well.
(45:13) JingJing: Yeah.
(45:13) Jeremy Au: Yeah.
(45:14) JingJing: And also there are a lot of funds from Taiwan, you know, even from China, Hong Kong, trying to set up shop here and trying to start, Investing in Southeast Asia, some of the behavior is just so unacceptable.
(45:27)
(45:27) Jeremy Au: want to hear what is it?
(45:28) JingJing: There's one time, so right after iterative, this one fund in Hong Kong tried to message me trying to have a chat, right? So I was like, okay, have a chat. Schedule 15 minutes call. That's the intro call.
(45:40) Yeah.
(45:41) JingJing: What are you going to talk about in 15 minutes? Right. Okay. Then the guy was.
(45:45) Three minutes late for the 15 minutes call. Okay. So be it. After call, obviously nothing happened. And then, last month I got an email from one of the analysts. Hi, changing, how are things doing? Could you please let us know what's your current ARR and then your margin (46:00) and what's your plan for the next two years to achieve?
(46:03) Let's say, I think 2 million or 3 million AR. One year, no interchange in what whatsoever communication. A brand new analyst asked me for my revenue figure for my margin. I really want to reply to the email saying that I'm having 2 million AR just to shut them up. But that was like, that was weird. Would you just randomly email someone say, how much do you make?
(46:29) No,
(46:29) Jeremy Au: I mean, I wouldn't do that. And I never did
(46:32) JingJing: that.
(46:33) Jeremy Au: actually goes back to your customer service point, right? Which is that these analysts are using templates. So they sound more robotic and they don't understand the CRM or the released companies history. And also, you know, the VC, like the junior and middle level, there's a lot of churn as well.
(46:49) so from her perspective as an analyst, when she sent out an email, I'm pretty sure she's still got 50 percent response rate. Does it make sense?
(46:55) Yes. So to her, it was like, wow, fantastic. 50 percent of my job is done just with a templated (47:00) email. Yeah. So I did my job and so my boss is gonna be happy with me updating my CRM.
(47:04) JingJing: Fair enough.
(47:04) Jeremy Au: But of course the problem is that it's a, actually a empty signal, right? Which is that the people who do respond to that.
(47:10) Well, some of them are decent people who would just be like, okay, let me delegate it. Let me just quickly write something. But still, you know what I mean? Like the best founders would just be like, exactly like you just feel very insulted and just say, I'd rather work with a VC that can add more value to my life.
(47:22) JingJing: Yeah. for sure. I think the best deal that you can strike is always a win win.
(47:27) Yeah.
(47:27) JingJing: if a deal that's in balance, on the one side of equation. Eventually, this is not a good deal.
(47:34) Right.
(47:35) JingJing: This is what I've seen from doing helpline. Right. And as a platform, we have to strike a balance. When you have so many partners, you have to be fair for every single one of them. You have to treat all of them equally. Right. And you can't just be like, I have a favorites. I'm going to give you a 20 percent discount and then you have to understand this relationship is something you need to build, you know, build trust, maintain it, and especially during crisis, how are you going to manage it?
(47:59) Right. (48:00)
(48:00) JingJing: Are you the VC during crisis? You're going to wire more money to help the company or are you the one just going to be? MIA. Right. So that really helps founders like us to understand, like for example, before I say yes to iterative, I specifically call a founder who recently fold his business and he went through iterative.
(48:19) I asked him what iterative said to you that, Oh my God, they even had a call with me trying to make sure I'm okay. Telling me one, two, three, four, five. And what's the next step? And they try to say that if I want to help out, you know, here and there, they have this, like, potentially this role that I can help out in the meantime while I'm looking for something.
(48:36) I'm like, that does not sound like Southeast Asia VC. That sounds like American VC, but obviously they invest in Southeast Asia. And then Suken and Brian, they're really doing what they said to the world. Right. And I was like, yes, I want to join this, and then truth to be told, I do think they're so good.
(48:53) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I actually had a similar experience where I did reference calls on two different VCs. And one of (49:00) them was the founder, similarly, mid shutdown basically saying like, you know, this VC was really good. And that VC was Bong Sil Ventures. So I was like, okay, good. I'm okay to be an employee to join this and be part of this.
(49:13) And I remember I was talking to somebody else for another VC fund and that person was like, Run. Don't even bother. I was like, okay, explain more about the blood. So I think it was an interesting dynamic. I feel like the trick for Southeast Asia is like the floor needs to get higher.
(49:29) just stop ghosting people. And add some basic value. Nobody's asking you to be the world's best. I think it's more about the ceiling is not really. The part that's painful, if that makes sense for performance, because so be it, you know, you are silent, passive capital with some benefits, Like everyone's gonna be like, okay, you know, like that's fine, right?
(49:46) Nobody's asking you to be the best, VC in the world, but I feel like the floor can be really low. in Asia.
(49:52) JingJing: just need to do a little bit in Southeast Asia. Like reply, you know, email. You reply with Nice (50:00) words.
(50:00) Jeremy Au: Oh, wow. You're asking too much, Jingjing.
(50:02) JingJing: Use ChatGPT.
(50:04) Jeremy Au: Use SuperBench for your Yeah, yeah.
(50:06) JingJing: I have a tone shifter feature, Yeah. If you don't know how to write nice message on WhatsApp, use SuperBench. I help you to shift your tone.
(50:12) Jeremy Au: Yeah, yeah,
(50:13) JingJing: yeah. Like, it will sound really nice.
(50:14) Jeremy Au: Invest X dollars per month for your analyst to copy paste the words in.
(50:19) Yeah. There you go.
(50:20) JingJing: Yeah. so I think focusing on my company myself, you know, like focusing more on revenue profitability, I'm not trying to achieve profitability right now, but I want to have minimum business case sorted, right.
(50:32) My focus right now is to grow, but not grow at all costs. I want to watch the cost side of things, but at the same time, I do want to grow. Makes sense. So I do have a very clear target and our whole team is super motivated to hit a target this year. Yeah. Fantastic.
(50:47) Jeremy Au: On that note, thank you so much.
(50:48) I'd like to summarize the three big takeaways I got from this. So first of all thanks so much for sharing about AI and how it's advanced over the past one, two years and how, you know, you as a founder are not only improving your product because (51:00) of this, but also changing how you are projecting and forecasting that technology advancement.
(51:06) to see when is the right time to build for whatever it is. Secondly, thanks so much for sharing about your own personal and professional productivity hacks, I guess, which is you know, being more vegetarian journaling, seeing a therapist. You know, stop drinking alcohol. So lots of advice there for founders and people who want to be founders.
(51:24) And lastly, thanks for, I guess we had a therapy session to each other about Southeast Asia BC in terms of like, you know, minimal due diligence as shown by the, you know e fishery kind of like scandal, I would say, and controversy as well as obviously talking a little bit about some of the bad investor behaviors that we've both seen in Southeast Asia as well.
(51:44) Yes.
(51:45) JingJing: Yes. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for inviting me here. Always a blast speaking with you. I look forward to seeing you more at Berkeley events.
(51:53) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Go Bears.
(51:55) JingJing: Okay. Thank you.