John Aguilar: Philippines Business Reality TV, Methods to Greatness & Failure before "The Final Pitch" - E336

· Failure,Philippines,Southeast Asia,Podcast Episodes English

“What you see on screen is just 0.1% of what happens throughout the show. In the case of The Final Pitch, just to put it together probably takes a half year and the filming itself takes a couple of days. So when you watch a pitch on the show, that's maybe six, seven minutes. That actually takes an hour, sometimes. What happens after the show, when the actual deals are forged, that's also the bulk of the kind of work that we have to still do, apart from just linking the entrepreneurs and the investors. So it's really a process that takes quite a bit of time, care and attention. So it's not just putting a camera in their faces and documenting the thing, because we're a part of the journey of both the investors and the entrepreneurs on the show.” - John Aguilar

“The unique thing about our business model that won us a business award last year is that the judges, in a way, are the co-producers of the show. We charge them a seat fee and this is what we use to produce the show and everything that goes into the production and promotion of each season of The Final Pitch. In a way, we call ourselves a SaaS company, but instead of software, we're a show as a service. The show is the platform for the judges to find partners and entrepreneurs, and also to promote their respective companies and their personal brands. We don't look for sponsors because the judges and the other partners and mentors are the co-producers of the show.” - John Aguilar

“Marriage and having kids change you as a person. This is a very temporal world that we live in. All of a sudden, it hits you and gives you an urgency that you need to accomplish certain things at different points in time because your vision for the future is not just tied to you. It's tied to your family, where you'd like to be in 10 years, where you'd like for the business to be in 10 years. Things are a lot more deliberate and time-bound because you have targets that you set for yourself that you want to accomplish because there are more people dependent on you. I still live life like I did, but now it's a lot more deliberate. I'm more careful, not just with what I eat, but with what I say, because what I say and do impacts a lot more people.” - John Aguilar

John Aguilar, Creator & Host of The Final Pitch and Methods to Greatness, and Jeremy Au discussed three main themes:

1. Television Production Realities: John provided an insider’s view of the television production world, explaining the intensive process behind creating a successful show. He emphasized that what the audience sees on screen is just the tip of the iceberg, with a mere 0.1% of the work being visible to viewers. He provided a peek into the “show as a service” approach of their show “The Final Pitch”, where judges double up as co-producers, investing a fee that funds the production. This enables a sustainable model, allowing the show to function efficiently without the need to seek sponsors actively. He also shared his ventures in real estate and technology, highlighting how the success of their shows paves the way for new business opportunities and investments in startups, with plans to expand The Final Pitch across Asia in the future.

2. Family Life, Longevity & Greatness: John shared how marriage and fatherhood altered his perspectives and priorities. He reflected on the shift from individual-centric goals to family-oriented aspirations, and how his role in media carries greater responsibility and influence than before. He shared how his passions and projects have evolved with his life stages, currently revolving around themes of longevity and crafting a meaningful legacy. He also explained how craftsmanship is more than just doing a job, it’s also about mastering your craft, continuously learning, and taking pride in your work. He stressed the importance of staying curious and finding joy in the process achieving greatness and ensuring longevity in any field - resulting in the show Method to Greatness.

3. Navigating Failure & Pursuing Success: John recounted a pivotal moment in his career when he produced a dance show in the Philippines which appeared to be a soaring success until it took a dramatic turn when they faced unexpected financial difficulties. He opened up about moments of doubt, frustration, and the feeling of being overwhelmed by the setbacks. Despite the challenges, he chose to remain resilient, taking responsibility for the situation, and learning valuable lessons about business and personal integrity. He explained that maintaining a strong moral compass in the face of failure taught him valuable lessons about the true nature of success and greatness - which eventually led to successfully launching The Final Pitch.

We also touched on the intersection of technology and media, the importance of cross-cultural collaborations, the role of sports science and medicine, and the value of mentorship in professional journeys.

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(02:15) Jeremy Au:

Hey, John, really excited to have you in the show. We had such an amazing dinner two months ago in Manila. And I just said, Hey, this is such a fun chat. We have to have you back and just share your story with more folks. Could you introduce yourself real quick?

(02:27) John Aguilar:

Thanks, Jeremy, for having me here. Yes, that was a great dinner. Very brief, but, we had you over here in Manila and glad to have you guys come over.

(02:33) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. So tell us about yourself.

(02:35) John Aguilar:

All right. So yeah, a lot of people refer to me as a serial entrepreneur. So I've done this, done that. My businesses are mostly tied to the TV shows that I produce. So seasons now, we've been producing Philippine reality TV. It's the country's first real estate TV show where we build concept homes but the startup ecosystem knows us more for The Final Pitch, which is our version of Shark Tank, The Apprentice and The Voice combined in one program. So we've had that for nine seasons here in the Philippines already, and something that we're hoping to scale across the Southeast Asian region as well.

(03:05) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, amazing. And I think you are also now an author as well, of Methods of Greatness. So really interesting to see that you said that while you recently launched this at a mall with over 200 folks coming for a launch, it sounds like an amazing launch that you had.

(03:18) John Aguilar:

Right. Methods to Greatness is my second book under Penguin Random House Southeast Asia. So the first one came out last year and we'd launched it initially in Singapore, apparently became a bestseller there in Kinokuniya and it talks about the art and science of the pitch. So apart from my experiences as the host and founder of The Final Pitch. I also interviewed a lot of, I would say experts, thought leaders from around the world from Silicon Valley, from across Europe, Asia, and really distilling into this book, what you need to pitch your ideas, whether it's just something that you've just recently developed or whether you're fundraising for your million dollar startup or your next round of funding.

So, did well in Singapore, and also became a bestseller here in the Philippines. And yeah, that was the first book and the second book we just launched here in the Philippines two days ago, and that's Methods to Greatness, which is an entirely different thing altogether. I interviewed Asians from around the world and it's a journey of the mind, body, and soul.

(04:13) Jeremy Au:

So I heard that you recently had a great launch for your book with a couple of hundred folks at a mall. It sounds amazing. Well, you just like what signing out boasts is throwing them out to the audience. I'm thinking of an Oprah scenario.

(04:26) John Aguilar:

Nothing like that. Your imagination's too wild. Nothing close to that. It was a little bit more tame than that, but yeah, we did have a good number of people. Come out to support the book. So yeah, that was great.

(04:37) Jeremy Au:

So how did you get into this space at all? So you mentioned you start out first, kind of like in production as well, but how did you first get into it?

(04:43) John Aguilar:

Yeah. So back in the early days, in my early twenties, my vision really was to be able to produce our own TV shows. So, but I wanted to produce shows that was not just for entertainment sake. I wanted for shows to be produced where I watched the show, but I really learned not just something, I really learned how to be able to either build my business or in the case of our show, the final pitch, I learned how not just the pitch, but even the mistakes possibly, or the good things that I can learn from the startups on the show. I kind of want people to have a takeaway from that. So it's not just shark tank, where in your pitching there's really a journey where people go into this journey. And they learn from the mentors and they learn from the um, investors also because the investors are also part of the show. So we have episodes where we actually bring the entrepreneurs to the HQ of the investors and they do this tour. Sometimes we have challenges like what they do in the apprentice. So it's really Very experiential for the entrepreneurs who joined the show and the entrepreneurs who watch it back home.

(05:42) Jeremy Au:

So what are some myths or misconceptions about, hosting and producing these shows? I guess my myth and misconception is that it's a very glitzy life, right? Is that everything's super easy to show off the camera? That's my myth. My imagination about the celebrity kind of flows through the TV screen. Tell us more.

(05:59) John Aguilar:

You know, Jeremy, what you see on screen is just like maybe 0.1% of what happens right throughout the show. So everything that goes into preparing for a season a thousand people that you have to talk to and coordinate with. But I've, I'm lucky because I have a really great great team. So the production side, I don't really have to worry about too much, but it's really, it's really a lot of work to come up with a season of a reality show. So in the case of the final pitch just to put it together probably takes a half year and the filming itself takes a couple of days. So when you watch a pitch on the show, that's maybe six, seven minutes. That actually takes an hour, sometimes 45 minutes to an hour. And also what happens after the show, when the actual deals are forged. So that's also the bulk of the kind of work that we have to still do apart from just linking the entrepreneurs and the investors. So it's really a process that takes quite a bit of time and also care and attention. So it's not just putting a camera in their faces and recording, documenting the thing, because we're actually a part of the journey of both the investors and the entrepreneurs on the show. And it doesn't stop.

When the camera stopped rolling it's an ongoing process to this day, some of the season one entrepreneurs that we've had on the show, we still help them. We still work with them. And it's an ongoing process because at the end of the day, we want to be an enabler for all of these ecosystem players in the Philippines. So the show is the very public front facing aspect of what we do, but behind the scenes, it's a whole team trying to see how we can add support the startups who come on the show, relying on it oftentimes not just for the funding, but also the possibility that later on, we will be able to help them reach out to more investors or possibly get more exposure either through the show or outside of it.

(07:42) Jeremy Au:

Amazing. So as you think about that what are the kind of things that people don't see? Like you said, what are the things that people don't really appreciate? What's the hardest part, of putting together? Is it like the crafting of the idea for the show? Is it sourcing for people? What do you think is the hardest part?

(07:57) John Aguilar:

Personally, for me, it's getting all of the judges together, That's the unique thing with our business model, cause in Shark Tank, the producers actually pay the sharks a talent fee, and the sharks use their own money to invest in the case of the final pitch. It's a little bit different because we have a business model that's quite unique. The business model actually won for us business award last year as one of the innovative business models in media in the Philippines, because what happens is the judges in a way are the co producers of the show. We actually charge a seat fee to them. And this seat fee is what we use to be able to produce the show and everything that goes into producing, promoting each season of the final pitch. In a way, we call ourselves a SaaS company, but instead of software, we're a show as a service. The show is the platform of the judges both to find these partners, these entrepreneurs, and also to promote their respective companies, their interesting es, even their personal brands. So it's really a show as a service. We don't waste our time looking for sponsors because the judges and the other partners and mentors are the co-producers of the show. That's how we're able do this very effectively and sustainably, year in and year out.

(09:00) Jeremy Au:

Wow. I had no idea. Now I know. And I think it's really interesting because you also use this. right? You've also progressed and you've done both, like you said, in real estate, but also in technology as well. So I'm still curious. What's your love? Are you still like, do real estate on the side or what, like how does that play out from your perspective?

(09:16) John Aguilar:

From that perspective, it's been pretty interesting because once we mount the show and it's successful, our team takes over. So, I'm really all about, trying to figure out, okay, what's the next thing that we can get into in terms of a very exciting industry or business that we can do because our businesses actually start from the show. So with our real estate show. We wanted to make sure that we were able to capture the market. And from there we started building houses. So a business model was born from the show. So that allowed us to be able to get into real estate development for the final pitch. It's all about getting all of these people together, these stakeholders, the investors, the startups. And from there, because we actually also participate in making sure that the startups. Not just get the funding, but also are able to get additional support later on. So, we actually have a stake. In some of these startups. So some of them we in some ways invest in as well. But this platform now allows us to reach more people. And in so doing, allows us to in the future, possibly have a bigger play.

So we're actually expanding the final pitch across Asia in the future. And what we hope apart from the front-facing show is that we're able to aggregate the investors, the startups across the region and get them funded beyond the show, because the front-facing is the show, but the back end is really us making sure that we're able to get additional funding, perhaps from judges, investors outside of the final pitch, so that's the long term play for us.

(10:41) Jeremy Au:

Amazing. And so what's been interesting is that you also taken this time to also put together your writing, right? So you've written two books. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you went about thinking about building these books? was it an idea first? How is it that you conceptualize the idea?

(10:54) John Aguilar:

So, Penguin Random House is the biggest publishing company in the world. So they reached out to me during the pandemic and they had asked me, John we know about your show, The Final Pitch. Do you have ideas for books that you'd like to pitch to us? And I was like, yeah, sure. But I didn't write at the time. I was like, okay, I will, I will submit something. So I received the LinkedIn message about 7pm I typed up four concepts and a week later they said, we think the concepts are great and we'd like to offer to publish three of those titles.

So, yeah, three, they signed me up for a three book deal and be careful what you wish for cause it's tough it's just coming up with one but in this case three, so the first title is The Art and Science of the Pitch, which came out last year in Singapore. Did well there and did well here in the Philippines as well. So that's out right now. And Methods to Greatness, which is based on a podcast that I started during the pandemic also that's what we launched a couple of days ago. And that now will allow us to get into a completely new, I would say industry because. Methods to Greatness is all about finding balance and finding your greatness in your mind, body, and soul. A big play that we want to do in the future is to explore peak performance and longevity. We've partnered with a healthcare provider here in the Philippines. So we're going on this journey similar to what Chris Hemsworth did with his series, Limitless on National Geographic.

we're kind of doing the same thing in the Philippines and across Asia. And I'm currently now in talks with some governments to possibly explore longevity and life sciences in countries like Switzerland Japan, Israel, Austria. So all about me being a Guinea pig at the onset, trying to find the best ways to optimize my Peak performance and trying to live over a hundred and documenting all of this into my third book, Jeremy, which is the working title is, yeah, The Art and Science of Peak Performance. So I'm going to try to see how I can basically enhance, optimize my body because by November of this year, Jeremy, I'm actually competing to represent the Philippines and the Asian Masters Athletics C hampionships and I'm going to be doing that for the sprints for the 100 meter dash in the relay. So right now I'm deep in training optimizing my body in time for that. And hopefully we get to bring home the gold for the Philippines.

(13:05) Jeremy Au:

I would be so excited. I'm looking forward to watch that. I gotta ask. So, McDonald's is no longer on the menu for you.

(13:12) John Aguilar:

I can't treat myself every once in a while to french fries, which I love but it's so hard. It takes a lot of work, man. It takes a lot of work.

(13:18) Jeremy Au:

So what's it been like? You said there's a lot of work.

(13:20) John Aguilar:

Yeah. Luckily, with this lifestyle that I have, I've always been healthy and tried to eat healthy. So I exercise almost every day. Yeah. So it wasn't like a big change or shift but it's more deliberate now, in terms of my training before, I would do maybe two, or three times a week of strength and conditioning, but now it's a little bit more deliberate. I actually have a strength coach, a strength and conditioning coach who's based in Europe. So we're doing this via Zoom. I have a sprints coach who's based in the US we're also doing it via Zoom, but the doctor that I just saw yesterday, cause I strained my hamstring. So every time that I have these aches and pains, I go to the doctor and my nutrition is a lot more deliberate now. As I go to these different countries in the next couple of months, I'm going to try to see how I can optimize based on the things that I learned and try to see how I can do those little tweaks that eventually will bring my time down to the time that I need for it to be competitive.

So yeah it's a lot of work, but also very exciting work that I'm doing now, because although it's for the book and the series, it's also for my own health and wellbeing. So it all works out in the end, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an athlete, but I'm also someone who is trying to optimize my best life so that I can live a healthy life for my wife my kids, and our employees. So, it helps me in the long term.

(14:29) Jeremy Au:

So I'm so curious about all of this like you said, mentioning like, what's really important for you, for your wife, the kids, employee. So why do they matter to you? Did you change? Before when you were like a bachelor to becoming a husband, becoming a father, do you feel life has changed for you, like how you think about life, philosophy? Have you matured as a person?

(14:46) John Aguilar:

I think definitely marriage and kids, change you a lot. It changes you fundamentally as a person. I think if before you would do things for a reason. I think the way you look at life and the things that you do now, is a very temporal world that we live in. All of a sudden, it hits you, it gives you an urgency that, you need to accomplish certain things at this point in time, just because your vision for the future is not just tied to you. It's tied to your family, where you'd like to be, let's say, in 10 years, where you'd like for the business to be even in five years, 10 years, 15 years. Things are a lot more deliberate and time-bound because you have targets that you set for yourself that you want to accomplish because there are so many more people dependent on you.

And in this case, because we're in media, the things that I do now affect not just me and the media community, but also people who watch what we do get inspired by what we do. So all of a sudden it takes on a bigger scope because our mission really is to see how we can affect more people. Through the work that we do, whether it's our shows, or the books to affect positive change in people. I'm also a lot more careful now with the things that I undertake and do just because it's like facing. I still live life like I did, but now it's a lot more deliberate I'm more careful now, not just with what I eat, but with what I say, because what I say and do impacts a lot more people.

(16:04) Jeremy Au:

Do you miss the time when you didn't have to be careful about what you eat and what you say?

(16:09) John Aguilar:

Maybe just a little bit, but not really. Cause I've matured, man. I mean, the age does that to you and there are things that you used to do when you're younger. You've been there, done that. So, I think I'm at a point where, it's time to work on uh, the other things and I'm very comfortable with where I am right now.

(16:23) Jeremy Au:

What are the other things in life for you? Do you define it as like the book, the podcast, the shows? What are the other things in life for you?

(16:29) John Aguilar:

Well, I think the most important really is family. I'm 45 years old. I do all of these things outside of the family, but at the end of the day, if I didn't have to work or do the business or do all these, this media, I just like staying home, to be honest. Traveling's a big part, but staying home and just being with the family, that's life, man. That's the best part of life and having meals with the family. That's really what it's all about at the end of the day, and if you look at the pictures that I take with my phone, a lot of the pictures that I think it's a lot of business, but the ones that I really keep and don't erase are the ones of the kids right, because, that's really what it's all about. I think the things that I will do later in life will get by my stage in life. A lot of the things that I used to do also before, the shows were dependent on what life stage I was at. So real estate, I was trying to build a business, trying to build our house. Now that we have it, we're moving on to other things. And now as I age more, it's on this longevity aspect. So, it reflects my current life stage, which is really interesting because whatever it is that I'm passionate about at that moment in time, it reflects on the work that we do and the things that we pursue.

So, which is very genuine and I feel because I'm vulnerable at that particular moment in time to trying to find out. What it is that I still need as a person, as a human being, I think it makes it a lot more genuine as something that I pursue and I think reflects on the work that we do and the things that we're able to share with the audience. So I think that's one of the most powerful things about what we do because it really comes from a place of wanting to improve and see greatness in that particular aspect of your life.

(18:01) Jeremy Au:

Yeah, I think longevity is interesting. Nobody wants to die, myself included. It was interesting because I was like, I took some time out. And so my wife and I were traveling in Italy and I was reading this book on longevity. There are so many books of them. And they're all really good, but it was interesting. I was reading this one particular book on longevity and, went to Pompeii. Okay. And there's all these unfortunate folks who have passed away, like a thousand years ago. And then, there's this kind of like mummified remains. it's such a contrast. It's like I'm reading on my Kindle about how to live longer, and I'm looking at these people who are like, unfortunately, deceased for a thousand years and then you got me thinking, which is like, yeah. And I think of myself in a weird way. It's like, you know, maybe hopefully I'll get to live a little longer if I'm following these prescriptive things, but you mean my kids will live, get to live a longer life than mine. Hopefully then my grandkids, I mean, the book was talking about how everybody will get to live forever eventually. That's kind of like really interesting. I was like, Oh, if this book is right, my grandkids will potentially get to live for a long time or even up to four because of biomedical science and I'm definitely going to pass away because of all this medical science, unfortunately, is not going to kick in before I'm gone.

And then I look at this person who's gone and he's like, I'm going to be that person. I'm going to be temporal. I'm going to go away in 80 years if I'm lucky. It was a contrast between somebody who's passed away a thousand years ago, myself, who's probably not going to live long enough to see all the benefits of all this longevity stuff and then one day my grandkids could potentially get to live forever. I don't know. It's like watching a lifeboat go out from your boat.


(19:16) John Aguilar:

That's very interesting because back in 2019, I attended Singularity University in Silicon Valley. So Dr. Peter Diamandis and his partners, at the forefront of longevity there's this thing called longevity escape velocity where it's the idea, the concept that for every year that you're alive, it is extending lifespan by another year. So, they're saying that our lifetime, our generation is actually the generation where potentially living up to 120, 130 will be normal just because everything has caught up with us and I beg to disagree with what you say, because as far as current data is concerned, at least for those who can maybe afford or can have access to it, we can live maybe not forever right now, but to a ripe old age of 120, 130, actually, that's what the bulk of my exploration is going to be for the third book. It's all about not just speaking performance, but trying to see how, as someone living in this generation, I can live over a hundred and have it something that is normal for people like us.

In fact, in the next couple of years, we may see obvious signs of this happening. Not just in the medical community, but with the masses, with the emergence of all of these technologies that will permeate our society in the next few years. So I'm very excited to explore that because I've only gotten to the tip of the iceberg. So this next book is going to be an exploration of that and more. So that's what I'm hoping to uncover as I do research down the road. So to the listeners of this podcast, I'm very open to seeing how I can possibly work with different organizations and countries that are at the forefront of this. I have gotten feedback from Germany that, is at the cutting edge of sports science, and medicine, the human genome is something that is very, very interesting to explore as well. So yeah lots of things to uncover and impact.

(20:55) Jeremy Au:

Amazing. Could you share about a time that you personally have been brave?

(20:57) John Aguilar:

I think the bravest was when I was just starting out this whole TV production business. So I started my first TV show called Dance Idol from a tip from one of my interns who was a cheerleader who told me, John, you have no idea how big cheerleading and dance is in the Philippines right now. I think you should put up a show and just make it the first reality dance show in the country, which I did just from a tip. I think I was brave because, with very little research, I stumbled into this new world of dance, and eventually got to produce what at the time was the biggest dance show in the Philippines, which we made into a TV special and then the TV show didn't really make money and, failed miserably in terms of bringing in the revenue, but it allowed for me to just get things going.

It was our first show. And from there I was saying, that really was the lowest point because I owed so many people so many things bit off more than I can shoot definitely, but it was the start of the business. It was really the start of, okay, putting everything together and me learning the ins and outs of the TV production business. So that was the first time that I ever sold a show. First time I ever put together a show that had thousands of people in a stadium it was brave because I was a kid, not knowing so much, but just really diving head-on into an industry that eventually I would be right now, deeply in, and I have no regrets And I think sometimes it just takes a little bit of stupidity and bravery to just get into something and you'll never know. Cause that was my start. Not the best of starts, but that failure was something that I will take with me till the day I die knowing what I know now that sometimes, you just got to really jump in. So, I think that was probably one of the bravest things that I've ever done.

(22:35) Jeremy Au: What's interesting is that you chose to do it and then you failed to hit your expectations. So how did you pick yourself up from there? Cause you could have said, you know what, this is not for me. Let me do something else in my life. But instead you said, I want to do it again, a second time. So how did you come to that decision?

(22:49) John Aguilar:

First of all, I think you have to wallow in your grief, which is what I did. Yeah. That time I was very young. I cried my heart out to my parents said, I'm not sure if this is the thing for me, but. You learn to accept the failure and you have no choice but to pick yourself up because at that point, you owe people money, right? And you owe people promises that you have to keep. So I was able to pay all the debts and make sure that we were able to serve all of the things that we needed, that we promised. It took a while, but my main goal was everything that we promised to everyone, we have to make sure that we are able to do it, which we did. Even if it took a while, but that was a big lesson for me and making sure that whatever it is that you do, whether you fail or not, you just have to make sure that you're able to live up to your promises because that really is the key. I know that I'm in this for the long haul and your name, your reputation is on the line with everything that you do.

So that is the most important thing. It's that if you say something, you have to make sure that you keep your word. That's been the guiding principle for us ever since. And I'm glad to say that right now that's how we do it, we make sure that whatever it is that we promise our clients, our partners, the public, we get to live up to our side of the bargain. That's how I think everyone should operate because I think some startups or companies, they seek funding, they raise money. And sometimes it's just, too bad, we didn't do it or we didn't make it and that's it but I don't think that's a good way to operate. Fundamentally, you have to have a realistic plan that, okay, this thing should generate money. It should generate revenue. But if not, then what is the next best thing that we can do, because I think if from the onset you create something that is going to be a value I think you have to have those fundamental things in place. And not just making a billion dollar valuation company, because I think that's really the wrong way or the wrong approach. So I think those things have to be in place for you to have a sustainable business.

(24:31) Jeremy Au:

Makes a lot of sense. On that note, thank you so much, John, for coming on the show and sharing. I'd love to share the big three takeaways I got. First of all, thank you so much for sharing about what's it actually like, to be a star.

(24:41) John Aguilar:

I'm not a star, man.

(24:43) Jeremy Au:

A star who also script, coordinate, schedule, and everything goes on to the 0.1% the screen time versus what actually goes into the reality. I thought that was a very nice description about what actually goes into the work that's there.

The second is thank you so much for sharing, about your passion for longevity and greatness. I thought that was an interesting dynamic where I think you mentioned about how it's not just a function of what you're interested in, but also reflection on your life stages. And so about whether you're a young person looking to make a mark to having a family and now maturing and thinking through the next phase of your life. I thought it was interesting reflection. It's reflecting your personal interest and then you're able to pull that together. I see that very nice synergistic flow. I think it makes a lot of sense and sounds like a wonderful way to have that sense of craftsmanship through the process.

Lastly, thank you so much for sharing about that tough moment that you have in terms of failure. I think you had shared a little bit about. How you think about success, how you think about failure, how you think about greatness. And I think it was very kind of you to share about when you failed and what had to cry but also chose to pick yourself up and do the next stage. So thank you so much for sharing your journey.

(25:42) John Aguilar:

Thank you so much, Jeremy, for having me here. It's been a pleasure to share this with you. And I wish you luck. I mean, you're doing a great job here with your podcast. And also, it's great to finally meet you back a couple of months ago. And I'm looking forward to possibly doing more partnerships work with you guys in the future.

(25:58) Jeremy Au:

Thank you so much.