Michael Chua: Consultant to Award-Winning Actor at Age 50, AI Disrupting Filmmaking & Climbing the 'Third Mountain' - E486

Michael Chua, Award-Winning Actor, and Jeremy Au discussed:

1. Consultant to Award-Winning Actor at Age 50: Michael had a a long and successful career as a technology consultant traveling across Europe. At the age of 50, he was talent-scouted through a Facebook photo to become an actor. His curiosity exploring a new creative field quickly blossomed into a successful career, with over 400 acting credits and several awards, including Best Actor and Best Film at the Singapore International Film Festival. He shared his experience learning to act in films like Ilo Ilo which won the prestigious Camera d'Or award at the 2013 Cannes Film Festival and the 50th Golden Horse Awards in 2014. He also discussed his experience acting in popular YouTube shows like Titan Academy led by JianHao (7.5 million subscribers).

2. AI Disrupting Filmmaking: Michael spoke about AI’s productivity improvements, e.g. LED backdrops replacing traditional green screens and automating processes such as color grading and sound editing. However, he emphasized that AI avatars of actors are truly disruptive, which raises the bar for all human actors. He warned that mid-tier actors who can't convincingly convey emotion may be replaced by AI, while top-tier performers will continue to thrive as their unique human qualities become more valuable. He also reflected on how the need for authenticity in performances becomes even more critical in the director’s role, especially in a world increasingly swamped by AI-generated content.

3. Climbing the 'Third Mountain': Michael described his transition from consulting to acting as climbing the "second mountain" and to directing as the most difficult "third mountain." Directing requires a broader skill set, balancing logistics with creative vision. His earlier career in technology consulting prepared him for this, giving him the ability to manage large, complex projects. As a director, he now oversees not just the actors but also the entire production, from lighting and sound to camera work and set design. Michael is determined to create films that resonate deeply with audiences while balancing the technical complexities of filmmaking.

Jeremy and Michael also talked about the pressures of privacy that come with being a public figure, the difference between influencers and actors, and the pros and cons of staying in Southeast Asia to tell culturally specific stories (vs. moving to Hollywood).

Conduct predictive carbon modelling and more using AI with Nika.eco, this month’s newsletter sponsor!

Have you ever wondered how governments decide where to best strategically place telco towers, hospitals & nursing homes? Or perhaps how insurers price premiums based on sea level rise and other climate risk? More so than ever in this age of machine learning, these critical decisions today are being supported by large geospatial models that are trained with millions of spatial data points. However, such computing environments can be incredibly complex, expensive and tedious to set up. Nika.eco offers a DevOps solution that significantly saves cost and time by allowing researchers and data scientists to create an optimised geospatial machine learning environment with just one click. Reach out to info@nika.eco if you are a geospatial data scientist or climate researcher who is interested to partner on a pilot or research opportunities.

(01:12) Jeremy Au:

Hey, Michael, really excited to have you in the show. You're an entertainment star with a big view on technology and you started in technology as well. Really interesting story.

(01:21) Jeremy Au:

Could you share about yourself?

(01:22) Michael Chua:

Well, I am now teaching in the University of Newcastle, Singapore campus. I'm teaching acting and media. And on the side, I'm still a technology consultant for some companies outside Singapore. I'm still acting, but I'm acting for other people. Not so much time left to do my own production and content, unfortunately.

(01:44) Jeremy Au:

Great. So what was your early career like? You were in technology and then you eventually got into acting, how did that process come about?

(01:52) Michael Chua:

I was a civil engineering undergrad when I got my first assignment programming, the geometric design of roads for a local software company when I was in Australia. Thereafter graduation, the obvious route was to become a programmer. And then I saw on the trade magazines that there were a lot of opportunities in Europe for contract programmers. So I flew there, actually, moved to different parts of England, then to the continental Europe, then Eastern Europe was almost opening up. And I went there as well. It was quite a different experience. One day I came back to Singapore and I was talent scouted online.

Somebody saw my photograph on Facebook and asked me whether I'd like to become an actor. When I appeared in the rehearsals and auditions, she was very generous with her compliments about my acting ability and not knowing any better, I believed her. At that naive stage, I thought, yeah, let's do it professionally. I sent my reels out and got a lot of assignments. To date, after 14 years, I have 400 overproductions and won a few awards. Then I started making content and two years ago, I started winning awards behind the camera as well. And because of this dual skill in front and behind the camera, I get to teach in the University of Newcastle Singapore campus now.

(03:10) Jeremy Au:

Amazing. So I got to go back to that first moment, right? Like, what was it? Was it a photograph? What do you think got the attention?

(03:17) Michael Chua:

That's what I asked the director. I said, why did you choose me? Just based on a photograph, right? And she said, gut feeling. So that's a very ati fati answer that doesn't help.

(03:27) Jeremy Au:

You can get gut feeling from looking at a photograph?

(03:29) Michael Chua:

People like that.

(03:30) Jeremy Au:

People like that? Wow, amazing. I mean, you're so experienced now, right? Because now you are on the other side of it. You're an actor, director. What do you think she meant by that?

(03:38) Michael Chua:

I think if you dissect into it, as an artist, if I cast somebody, I look at the appearance. It could be superficial. You can just look at the aesthetics of that person. That's one way of doing it. And it depends on the nature of that production. Say, suppose it is a romance movie so you want the co-actors and the lead actor to be very handsome, very beautiful. So that is how you cast for certain genres or movies. But if you Zoom in to the facial features and how they look like, you can kind of trace a kind of underlying character in the face and I think she saw a very sorrowful father or loving father in my face, which I played the lead role in the film that she was directing.

(04:23) Jeremy Au:

Wow. What was the age when you were scouted?

(04:26) Michael Chua:

Okay. 50.

(04:28) Jeremy Au:

50. You'd done a full career before, you know, acting, right?

(04:32) Michael Chua:

Yeah, very unusual, but don't don't don't follow my route because it'll be very, very unusual. If you really want to start acting, start young. It helps because you will get to do a more varied range of roles rather than if you start late. I cannot play the lead role in a romance movie or a child movie or a teenage movie, right?

(04:52) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. And I think what's interesting is you know, you've done this. I mean, obviously it's one thing to be scouted, but it's another thing to say yes, because you could have said no and kept going with your career. You got to get a holiday, right? You can prepare for retirement. But why were you like, Hey, I want to actually try this acting?

(05:08) Michael Chua:

I think all people love acting because when you look at children playing, they are role playing, yeah, acting. And as they grow out, and as they grow up, I think the interest is taken out of them through structured education and restrictions. So I guess I didn't really grow out of that. I kept that interest and passion at heart. When the opportunity came, I was curious and took it up. I am teaching now in class and I know all my students are so shy, it is a mass communication course. But they still have to get off their butt and be in front of the camera at some point, right? Most people, I realize, are very shy about that.

(05:45) Jeremy Au:

So there you are, doing your first production. And what did you learn from that first production? How's that first ever experience?

(05:51) Michael Chua:

When I was 17, I was a member of the Welfare Services Club in Singapore Polytechnic. We went out to serve the residents in various welfare homes, old folks home, children's home, social community center, problematic children's centers and all that, and the special kids. So in the process, we also sing, dance and act for them, but that is more stage kind of work where you start from the beginning and go sequentially to the end, A to Z.

But now on film, I was just puzzled how the camera moves. You do the same thing over and over again. Secondly, you are not shooting in sequence. So because of efficiency, you're not shooting in sequence. So you could start in the middle, then to the front, and then to the end and to the middle again. And that is quite challenging, particularly in scenes where you need to have emotional continuity. Say, suppose this is a sad scene. You start here, not so sad. Then very sad, then very sad, and break down, right? But now you start in the middle, or you're gonna be very sad now. Then the next shot might be in the beginning and the director will tell you, calm down now. You're in the beginning of the sad scene. Don't cry too much because you gotta rev up. Leave some room to rev up later. A lot of lights, a lot of techniques to cheat the camera. We are living in a 3D or some people say infinite dimension world where the camera is mostly 2D.

So what looks good in the 3D world may not look good on the 2D camera. Sometimes you're in an awkward position, but it looks good on camera, right? So that a few tricks like this. Yeah, and you don't overact. They always ask you be your be and don't act the moment you think you're acting It doesn't work. You really have to believe in that character and deliver. Stage acting also encourages the same thing but you get away with exaggerated acting because on stage you need to exaggerate. And when you exaggerate, you're not really being that character. You are just delivering a performance to a wide audience. Where on camera, you're delivering to a point, a lens in the camera. So that's the major difference, which is more difficult depends stage you're in, got cuts and all that. But then you have a lot of rehearsals to prepare. They cannot see the minor muscle twitch in your face. So you get away with not really feeling it. You just appear to feel it from a distance to them and you get away with things.

(08:14) Jeremy Au:

So you had done that first set of performance, in terms of your early age, but now you started your real acting career at the age of 50 plus. Why did you decide to keep going, right? Because did you enjoy it? Did you not enjoy it?

(08:25) Michael Chua:

Professional acting opened a world in such a depth that I didn't know existed. A lot of people think acting is just going through a story, but it's a lot more than that. It's experiencing life in depth. So It's living life sincerely under imaginary conditions. This is something I can't find in most other jobs. If you have experience acting, most other jobs appear to be boring in comparison, so I don't want to give up acting. I don't think I will ever give up acting.

(08:54) Jeremy Au:

So, you've won some awards, in terms of personally, but also, in terms of acting in movies, like, Ilo Ilo, right? Could you share a little bit more about that experience? Because you obviously improved your craft, from a beginner in your, age to kind of like a high performance, but how do you think that journey has been? Any reflections on that ladder?

(09:13) Michael Chua:

I was lucky that by my fifth production, it won Best Actor and Best Film in the Singapore International Film Festival. When I look back at my performance, I was surprised that I really fleshed out the character very well. That surprised me as well. And during the award ceremony, they thought that I have been acting for many years. They thought I was a veteran. So that was quite, I was quite shy about that because I was not. Yeah. So how did I get into the character? I think there are a few reasons how an actor can perform better than average. Coming in as a more mature actor, having traveled and seen the world, that helps. And I have been meditating regularly every day for 20 years already. And the director counts as well because this particular director is very detailed in the way he looks and examine the screen and performance. I was lucky to have met the correct director, correct production and correct story. In a good production, everybody has to be good.

(10:10) Jeremy Au:

What's interesting is that, you've kind of climbed this second mountain, right? Cause you had a career doing acting and now I feel like you're climbing a third mountain, which is this, directing and writing role. Could you share more about how you've been thinking about this career changes?

(10:24) Michael Chua:

I think the third mountain would probably be steeper than the first two mountains. There is a huge difference between being in front of the camera and behind the camera. In front of the camera is living sincerely under imaginary circumstances, which is mostly fantasy. Behind the camera, the director has to look at the fantasy and determine how he can tweak the real world logistics to make you perform better. And that is quite difficult. He is also in charge of many people in the creative side, right?

The camera, the lights, the sound, the props, the set design, the location, so, so many things he have to be in charge of that. Acting, you only have to be in charge of yourself. No matter how difficult you're in charge of yourself. You're not even in charge of your co-actor. If your co-actor cannot perform, it's kind of irritating, but it still works.

(11:10) Jeremy Au:

How do you re to be a director? Because you re skill yourself to be an actor, but I feel like, it's more direction, right? I'm sure there's direction from your director, etc. But how do you re skill from an actor to a director?

(11:21) Michael Chua:

By taking the deep plunge. Sometimes, being blissfully ignorant helps. You think you can do it Instead just do it. So now I look back at my first production was horrible, right? So you, you have to be brave and learn as fast as possible. The way to learn the most out of film production is to do every part of the production. After being in front of the camera, I wrote scripts, I learned about camera work, I learned about storyboarding, I learned about sound. Of course, you learn only a very little bit, barely scratching the surface, but you thought you knew, and you just went ahead with it. That's the start.

Then after every production is normal for every director. They will always say that, oh I should have done this, should have done should have done this, so the next production will be better. But the next production, you'll likely say the same thing at the end of post-production. We should have done this. We should have done that. So after that, you'll be a gradual iteration and improvement. But one can be better if you have tasted all the rules before. If you are a screenwriter and you don't want to turn up on set to observe how the director changes your script and direct the actors, then your improvements will be slower.

(12:28) Jeremy Au:

Could you share your perspective on technology? I know you've written about it in your blog. You use technology a lot, and you've actually seen the changes that technology has done, on the entertainment industry. I'm just kind of curious about, from your perspective, what are your thoughts about, like, AI and generative AI on the entertainment industry and roles?

(12:46) Michael Chua:

It's huge. The tech impacts on the film and acting industry is huge. Most films are made digitally with LED lights and digital cameras, but that is old news. Now social media has come in in casting. So now You can get a huge range of looks and personalities through social media. You can pick them up and sieve out those without talent and those with minimal talent or meet the minimal standards, you can wrap it up by rehearsals and training and maybe they are suitable for that particular role. So that, and then even AI has moved into editing softwares and a lot of other aspects of filmmaking.

Green screen maybe on the way out. Maybe, I say maybe because depending on how you use it. Green screen is now being challenged by LED backdrops where you have fictitious backdrops out there and you don't have to do post production edits to replace the backdrop. Robotic rigs where you can create a movement and program it and the robot will do exactly the same movements to catch your subject. This pre programmed stuff may or may not work because sometimes you want to change things or capture different X factors on the spot. So it's controversial. I think it's contentious as whether this will come in in the mainstream next time, but in certain cases it will definitely work.

Then AI has come in a strong way as well. All the major software tools and even the not so major ones, they all have AI now. AI is everywhere in software editing tools. You can change the azimuth of light from this side to that side if you want. You can change the color grading to some extent. They can do color grading automatically for you as a first draft. Same with sound, they can adjust the sound. They can clean up the noise and so on. Further, they have also programmed, camera rigs and cranes to move in predictable manners so that you have consistency in the different takes.

But of course the technology is only coming in recently and whether the human's procedures and creativity matches the availability of those technologies. Yeah, for instance, human beings tend to be fickle about certain things, the backdrops and all that.

(15:03) Michael Chua:

So in pre production they may say, oh this is a great idea, right? But when it goes to the production they say well not so good. No, it's not exactly what I thought. The color is slightly different and maybe on set the camera lens is different So different lens by the way capture different colors slightly differently And if you are very arty farty anal director, you say no, this is not it. I wanted it bright red. It must be bright hot red. This is down red It doesn't work. So if it doesn't work, you cannot go back to pre production and replace the backdrop. Quite difficult to do that. If it's green screen in post production, you can discuss now. Let's change this and change that.

Some of the impacts are yet to be seen. There'll be some impacts. There'll be some instances where definitely it will work. For example, if I'm in Singapore, and I want to shoot a scene of my son or my friend in England through four seasons, which can be seen out on the window. And you can't do that in Singapore, right? So you use the backdrop and in one day, you can shoot four seasons. In some instances, it's definitely good. Some instances yet to be seen.

(16:05) Michael Chua:

For a small country like Singapore, I think IMDA has sponsored. or give grants to virtual studios. They call it virtual production studios because we have a shortage of land to give bombastic landscapes from behind.

(16:19) Jeremy Au:

So what's interesting is that, we've seen technology transform the entertainment industry a lot. Right now, of course, we're at a stage where we see realistic AI video avatars already emerge, right? So, you know, you see that on, multiple like platforms create like these, you know, 100 percent simulations, right? You know, you can do, AI narrations easily as well. So I think, it's not that far away, maybe 10 years away before you get a world class performance from these AI avatars so what do you think is the future for, I guess, human entertainers?

(16:49) Michael Chua:

Yeah. The game will change. In my view, the good actors will get more work and those not good actors or very wooden actors would maybe wipe off the map. Because they can be replaced by avatars. If you cannot give impressions or good emotions, then what's the difference between you and the avatar? No difference.

And secondly, for certain videos, for example, if I have a corporate video or a sales video to teach you how to use the microwave oven, there's no real need for emotions. I'm just teaching you how to use the microwave oven. So now they use humans. They still use humans to do that part. But eventually this will be generated videos, I believe.

For the very good actors, those that already have a following, and can connect emotionally with the audience. They will get more gigs. In certain productions where perhaps they only have half the screen time because it is a story about a young man through his middle age, through his old age. Presently, you use two actors, right? A young actor and an old actor because the makeup can only stretch you this far. But with AI, they can use the same actor, make him look young, make him look middle aged, make him look old, so he'll get more gigs.

I know you are a great guy, great actor, but not handsome enough. No problem. AI will fix that. The good actors will get more gigs. It's going to be a tough world.

(18:07) Michael Chua:

And I think that applies to other industries as well. The good designers, the good lawyers, the good doctors. They'll become better. And those that are mediocre, before they still can scrape a living. After AI, I think it's difficult. For instance, now when I give remote consulting through the phone, paid by the hour. It used to be easier. You just have to have the conversation for one hour. You put down the phone, the money is there. Now they send me five questions and ask me whether I'm confident to answer these questions.

So I will answer it according to what I think is correct. After that, I fit in the same questions to AI to check whether AI can give a better answer than I have, right? If AI can give a better answer than I have, then why should a client pay for me? So I have to make sure that my answers are specific to the conditions, usable and testable, measurable, which AI at the moment still not very good, so I still can make a living from advising companies. If you are a consultant with inadequate experience or vision to see what is 10 years ahead, 15 years ahead, then AI can do the rest of the work and the client will not need to pay you.

(19:19) Jeremy Au:

What's interesting, like you said, is that the two people who benefit, obviously, in terms of the actor world is people who are already great and maybe they will rent out their avatars, their likeness to people, and then obviously the second people is people who are currently good, right? And then it will be less space for people to come in. When I think about some of this stuff, I think about all the, you know, how many tailors are left in Singapore, right? You know, how many people can make a men's suit in Singapore? That's all manufactured by, you know, your various, like, Hugo Boss or whatever it is. So the only tailors left in Singapore are those who started before the off the rack suits came into existence and everything. But it's very hard to start as a new tailor today.

(19:55) Michael Chua:

But then that, I think in the age of AI and deepfakes, authenticity is gold because authenticity cannot be replaced by AI. It has to come from the consciousness. So if you are in touch with your consciousness, very comfortable in your skin, your heart and your head, they are fully synchronized.

Then you have an emotional connection with your audience and that works. So there's still space for such people, but you have to be brave. You have to sometimes act against the grain of the masses in social media or among your peers to be really genuine about yourself, which then you may appear to be weird or eccentric or silly to your friends. But as long as you are comfortable in your skin and you're not harming anybody, I think that is your authenticity going through.

(20:44) Jeremy Au:

I think what's interesting is that, if acting talent becomes cheaper, right, because of avatars and writing becomes cheaper as well, it feels like maybe directors get more power, because they have more control. They can be their own writer. They can be their own actor. How do you think about that?

(20:58) Michael Chua:

We are in the beginning of the avatar world. So if you have a wooden looking avatar, just good looks, you can program graphically. So if it's slightly wooden or doesn't have a interesting background and story to tell, you get away with it now. But in time to come, there'll be a arms race of who has a more interesting avatar. And to produce a more interesting avatar will require a team of researchers, character writers, color coordinators, costume coordinators, and a higher resolution, more realistic looking avatar. So the cost will go up as well. So I don't see it getting cheaper. You get quite expensive actually. So you come to a stage where you would think if the avatar is that expensive, is it easier to have a human?

That will come to a point where we have to decide. But having an avatar, of course, you have advantage, especially if you are using them as your product ambassador, because they cannot have scandals. You can tweak the story to tell whatever the audience like to hear and believe. Whereas a human being is harder to do that. I think that is the major difference. I don't think it's the cost. Directors have more control for film productions. Some people say that through acting comes on the stage because the actor can do anything on stage, even if the director told them not to do it. Whereas on film, if the director tells you not to do it and you do it, they edit you out. So directors will always have a lot of control.

(22:22) Jeremy Au:

When you think about all this technology, what advice would you give to a younger actor, somebody who's aspiring to be an actor because of the technology space and competition, would you advise them to go and start on TikTok or YouTube, would you tell them to start practicing using AI? What advice would you give them that's not like an old school advice, but really prepares them for the future?

(22:44) Michael Chua:

You have to be back to the basics of improving your craft, being able to get into character and delivering the emotional connection because whether you're on TikTok, social media, or otherwise, you have to make that emotional connection and to know that it is different being an actor versus an influencer. An influencer is there to sell a product usually and the product is not you. An actor is also selling a product but the product is you and you're telling a story to connect.

If you're an actor, you have to determine what persona you want for yourself to the public. If you are random and you go into TikTok and do silly gigs, I don't think it will help with promoting your branding and the path to a more successful acting career.

(23:29) Jeremy Au:

Do you think people want to go for a normal acting career? There seem to be all these superstars that are successful on TikTok or short form video.

(23:37) Michael Chua:

Those that want to tell stories and make emotional connections will continue to become actors. Those who just want to have attention and be famous and be desirable to the opposite sex or the same sex it will become influencers. There are some that are in between, for instance, they realize that they can also make some money as an influencer, so they also become an influencer, but then you have to manage your online persona very carefully.

(24:06) Jeremy Au:

Gotcha. One thing is that, you've been an actor in the Singapore and Southeast Asia ecosystem. Obviously the US media complex is huge and very strong as well. How do you feel? Some people complain it was like small fish, big pond, big fish, small pond. What do you think about that?

(24:22) Michael Chua:

Acting and films are culture bound, so if you really love telling stories within the Southeast Asian or the Singapore culture, then you remain in Singapore, because if you think strongly that way, then money is not the object. You'd rather have 200 people watching your film and absolutely love it and inspired by it, than 200, 000 or 200 million. So, if you are culture bound, then it does not matter. But if you want to hit the big time, stage and big lights, then you have to go to a market that is bigger. For instance, China, India, and the United States, I think China and India may be easier to get past the immigration hurdles, but in America, unless you have hit a big box office success elsewhere, it's hard for you to get a visa. If certain levels, they can justify bringing you in. Then you have to decide whether you want to tell stories of an American story, or big box office, big budget visuals like Marvel stories is that the kind of stories you want to tell?

But obviously then the money will be good, you'll be treated differently, and if you are ultra uber successful, you might start losing your privacy and changing your personality unknowingly. You might be more snobbish, less accessible. All this has to be determined, if you want that way then go that way.

(25:43) Jeremy Au:

Do you feel like you've lost your privacy? Do you still get to eat at a hawker center and wear a singlet outside?

(25:49) Michael Chua:

My son is criticizing my dressing, so I better be more careful to dress better. Well, I'm a guy who cares about dressing, right? I still do all these things, but Singaporeans are very sweet. They tend to respect your privacy, but there are times where it gets a bit awkward. There were times where I was eating in a hawker center, and that person is opposite me.

Everything normal. I was eating, finished, and then she looked at me. And she walked away. So she was observing me all the time without me knowing. Recently, it was so hot outside, right, Singapore. Then you go to the MRT, super cool, wah, damn nice. So you're resting there. After some time, you fall asleep. And there was a tap on my shoulder. Whenever there's a tap on the shoulder when I'm sleeping in the train, it's the ticket inspector. So when I woke up. I said, he's not a ticket inspector. In fact, he's a little child and he wanted a photograph with me. That was mildly annoying, but okay. I had a photograph with him.

I'm not uber famous in Singapore. Maybe to the general adult population, 2 in 10 would have seen me, know of me or heard about me. But for age groups 4 years old to 16, probably 6.5 to 7 out of 10 have seen me in the YouTube series called Titan Academy. So they are ardent followers and fans of that series, so they would know me. I get increasingly, a lot of interruptions in public from this age group. But from the adults, no problem. Even if they know you, they just shake hands with you, say hello, and take a photograph. But the younger groups, they are more excited about that.

(27:23) Jeremy Au:

Could you share about a time that you personally have been brave?

(27:26) Michael Chua:

Okay, you remember I was studying in Australia, and graduated, worked there for a while and then one day I decided to go to England without a job and limited money I didn't know anybody there. So I think that was a big jump. And when I went to London, it was quite different from what I expected. From tourist brochures and all that, it looks different. Those days we don't have YouTube to take reference on. We don't have social media to share the pitfalls of navigating in London. So that was quite a brave move. I don't know whether you should say brave or stupid because if you don't know the dangers and you went, doesn't mean that you're brave, it just means that you were ignorant. That was a deep dive into international consulting and thereafter, thankfully, I did very well.

(28:10) Jeremy Au:

What's the difference between bravery is to stupidity in that context?

(28:15) Michael Chua:

Bravery is that you know the dangers are lurking so you can avoid some of the dangers or ask yourself what is your risk appetite, right? For example, in the back lane where you can see a lot of interesting stuff, real world stuff, not tourist stuff, and you go there with your big camera what are the chances you get mugged, right? Or get pestered by prostitutes and pimps and drug peddlers and all that. So you have, that is the risk appetite. You have to ask yourself. That's being brave. But being stupid, you didn't even know that exists. You just went for it and then you get into trouble and do damage control as you go along.

(28:50) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. I think it's interesting because you went through that early career. Have there been any transferable lessons from your 30 years career into, how you approach the acting and entertainment career?

(29:01) Michael Chua:

I think the commonality over the three mountains that I've climbed is to have clarity over what you're passionate about, believe it, and know that you will achieve it. Because if you have no clarity, you're going around in circles. If you don't believe it, you can't plot out your route, at least your first few steps to start. With that, you will definitely achieve it. You already know the steps and you modify the small steps along the way but it's always very painful. There's always a lot of pain and lessons along the way. So you have to be careful about what you wish for because nothing comes without the downside as well.

(29:36) Jeremy Au:

What has been the pain or downside from transitioning from Mountain 1 to Mountain 2 and Mountain 2 to Mountain 3?

(29:43) Michael Chua:

Because when Mountain 1, I was very lucky. After the initial difficulty of getting the first few gigs, I continued to get bigger and bigger gigs with more and more money. And you tend to assume that the methods and perceptions are the same. So Mountain 2 totally different. It's highly, highly competitive and can be bitchy as well if you're not careful, right? You've got to navigate yourself very well. Now you are the product. Your knowledge is not necessarily a product. It's you, your persona is a product. And that was a difficult adjustment. And Mountain 3, which I'm still climbing the initial foothills, requires a much broader view of the world. Even broader than technology consulting and acting put together because you are creating a fantasy world for a group of audience to enjoy and hopefully learn something from. That's very, very difficult.

I think it's still the same, believing in what you're doing and go for it and learn a little bit, which I have, I learn a little bit each time. And now I managed to win some awards, which is quite comforting.

(30:46) Jeremy Au:

On that note, Thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways. First of all, thanks for sharing about how you were having a successful career until 50 years old and how you got talent scouted for your first gig. I thought it was fascinating to hear about your learnings about the acting career.

Secondly, thanks for sharing about how you see AI and technology change, what you're seeing and facing in the practice of art.

And lastly, thanks so much for sharing about what's it like to climb the second mountain and now be climbing third mountain. So in terms of your career, it's interesting to hear about your transition, some of the sacrifices you've made in terms of privacy, but some of the. benefits of it and, what advice you would give to other people as well. On that note, thank you so much, Michael, for sharing.

(31:26) Michael Chua:

Thank you for having me.