Ren Yi Hooi: Ikigai, MBA Guidance & Bain To Founder Decisions - E179

· Women,Start-up,Founder,Singapore,Podcast Episodes English

I think the framework that helped me think about it is Ikigai but it's like that intersection of what you enjoy doing, what you're good at, what the world needs and what can make you money and that sort of helped me to think about the various options that were on the table and just reflect on that and understand a little bit more about myself and what kind of career choices could help that.- Ren Yi Hooi

Ren Yi Hooi is the Founder and CEO of Lightning Social Ventures, a Fintech for Good startup which enables charities and public sector institutions to verify and accelerate support for people in financial hardship. A globally recognised impact award winner, Lightning launched in Feb 2021 and is now revenue generating with multiple national partners in the UK.

Prior to this, Ren was the Product Director and Director of Financial Inclusion at Railsbank, a leading FinTech platform. Ren has also held a number of different roles at companies and social sector organisations across four continents, including Bain & Company, BIMA (a global InsurTech provider) and The Rockefeller Foundation.

Ren graduated with an MBA from The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and a B.A. from UC Berkeley. She is a recipient of the UK’s Tech Nation Exceptional Talent Visa.

Jeremy Au: (00:30)
Hey Ren Yi. So excited to have you to show. You're a founder of a social enterprise that is tackling a really important space which is really about protecting so many people. And I'm excited to have you on the show because we've been good friends for a while since UC Berkeley and Bay days and I think you have a lot to share along the way.

Ren Yi Hooi: (00:48)
Thanks, Jeremy. It's been a long time. It's been more than ten years since we got to know each other at Berkeley?

Jeremy Au: (00:54)
I know, it's super crazy. So, I got to ask you, who are you professionally these days?

Ren Yi Hooi: (01:04)
Now I'm the founder and CEO of Lightning Social Ventures. We’re a Tech for good startup that helps people who are in financial hardship by providing a platform for charities and public sector organizations that want to get support to people who need it most. We started Lightning Social Ventures because there are a huge number of people in the UK, one in five or 12 million people who are struggling financially now.
And many of them find it really difficult to get the support they need. They have to go through lots of paperwork and then weeks or months to get support. And you can imagine when you're on the edge of losing your home or putting food on the table, it's really hard to wait for so long. So we went to do something, use tech to make the process faster, more secure, more effective, to get support out to people who need it most.
That's about what we're doing now, but happy to go more into detail later on if that's feasible.

Jeremy Au: (02:04)
Yeah, and could you give us a few bullet points of what you did before as well?

Ren Yi Hooi: (02:08)
I went to college in Berkeley, originally from Singapore, and after that, did a few years in consulting. So I was at Bain and it was a really good learning experience. But after starting at Bain, I felt like we spent a lot of time helping big companies get richer, and I was keen to do something more impactful. So I did an MBA at Wharton sort of thinking through how to pivot into the impact space that a couple of internships like a social enterprise in Tanzania and the Rockefeller Foundation in New York, and then left them…well, graduated from Wharton and spent a few years working with BIMA, which is an intra-tech company that supports people in emerging markets to get access to insurance. So Bima spent a lot of time in emerging markets from places like Malaysia, Cambodia, Bangladesh, helping people to get who are typically unbanked on the bank to get access to the financial protection they need. And after that, I then moved to the UK, where I've been for the last two years or so.
I joined Rails Bank, which is a fintech company that's growing really quickly as their head of product. It's a great experience, did that for about a year. But when the pandemic struck, then I really wanted to…I saw how many people were impacted who had lost their jobs. I was keen to use some of that tech that I learned about to help them.
So that sort of then led me to Lightning Social Ventures. I guess it's been really a bit of a lightning journey. So I've been in four different regions geographically, taking about ten different roles of the last ten years before ending up here.

Jeremy Au: (03:52)
And what's really interesting is that now you’ve decided to be a founder, so why be a founder now in the middle of a pandemic?

Ren Yi Hooi: (03:58)
Yeah, it's a strange time to start a business, I think mainly because for me, it came so clear. So when I was at Rails Bank and the pandemic first struck, there were people in my neighborhood that had lost their jobs that were really struggling to make ends meet. And quite painful to see that around you.

Ren Yi Hooi: (04:18)
But it was I didn't sort of plan to go and start a company. Initially, we started a project internally within Rails Bank to use our payments infrastructure to get money out to the people who need it. So I started that as a project that took off quite quickly. Within the space of months. We helped to distribute a few hundred thousand pounds to people who needed it.
So initially the plan was then to spin that out into a separate company. It didn't really work out for various reasons, but I think having seen the scale of needs among individuals in hardship and also from organizations that are trying to best to support them, it made sense to continue to start a business that would support that. So yeah, after a bit of thinking and not being sure of what to do, I fell into being a founder.

Jeremy Au: (05:11)
Why did you care? I mean, you've always cared about impact for a long, long time. This start at UC Berkeley all the way back then or when did this start for you?

Ren Yi Hooi: (05:19)
Yeah, I think it started quite a while back. Probably the first way. If I go back in time, I remember that back in high school. So when we're doing our A-levels, we did a project to raise funds for a charity under the YMCA Youth Causes Program. So at the time we sort of went out, did a project and raised about $18,000 for this charity that was helping youths that were low income and at risk of committing offenses and getting into prison.
And I remember that at that time when we raised the funding, it contributed to over half of the charity's income for the year. I was quite blown away because at the time we really had no idea what we were doing, but it turned out to actually have a pretty significant impact on the organization and the people that they were helping.
So that experience kind of stuck with me as an opportunity to make a difference. As things went on, there were various moments where I was involved in the impact space. So I spent about two months working with a microfinance organization in Ghana, and I got to see firsthand the level of poverty, but also the resilience among people that really struggled to have access to finance and to the essential goods and services that they need.
So these experiences stuck. But I guess I didn't think about focusing on that career wise until I had spent a few years at Bain and released that and thought about what I wanted to do longer term life.

Jeremy Au: (06:53)
And so if that was something you cared about, then why did you join Bain?

Ren Yi Hooi: (07:00)
Actually, before joining Bain, I was meant to join the Singapore government. I did a couple of internships there. And the reason why I went to Bain was I felt that there was too much paperwork and things were moving a bit too slowly at government and Bain being consulting was fast paced, was good learning opportunity, and it felt like the right step, career wise, I think it was great from a learning perspective to be surrounded by lots of really bright people, to receive some formal training. So I think it was still a really good couple of years that maybe laid the foundations for how to think about some things and how to be more effective later on in life.

Jeremy Au: (07:49)
You know, you jolted my memory because I do remember you agonizing about whether to drop the Singapore Government scholarship.

Ren Yi Hooi: (08:00)
The government was not happy.

Jeremy Au: (08:04)
But yeah, I think a lot of people do decide to join the Singapore government because they also do want to help society, right? Yeah. Is I think a big part about why, but the how, like you said, it's not the right fit because it's too slow in that sense and so it's not the right fit. And then you joined Bain, which is interesting because I would join Bain a year later because I think you graduated a year earlier than me because you decided to graduate faster.
I only got out in three and a half years. I was already fast. That was like there you are just like blitzing ahead of me.

Ren Yi Hooi: (08:40)
I was pretty good. I mean, now it looks like why don't stay longer and enjoy the college experience.

Jeremy Au: (08:48)
I kind of really can’t cast the first stone. I mean, I just did half year modern year. So do you feel like Bain was worth it? I mean, reflecting on my side, I mean, before I thought it was pretty fun. I learned a lot. Obviously great training, great culture. Obviously, we got to hang out on a couple of projects.

Jeremy Au: (09:02)
Also pretty intense and obviously at the start you mentioned. It was an interesting dynamic, we’re helping rich companies get richer as well.

Ren Yi Hooi: (09:10)
So yeah, I should probably not be so blunt. I mean, these are obviously just generalizations, not everything in government is slow. The Singapore government moves a lot faster than many other corporations in the world as well. Yeah, in consulting, it's not always helping big companies get richer. So actually, I remember a really fun project where we were helping SMEs in Singapore.
So we got to go around to the small factories, the small bakeries, and figure out how to support them with their operations. Was it worth it to join consulting at the beginning? And I think it absolutely was. As you say, there is quite a lot of training and learning opportunities, so you get to think about things analytically, learn to do like basic PowerPoint and Excel.
So probably now a little bit more of a formatting freak than other people and you get to learn from really smart people around you above you as well as get exposed to a range of industries and sectors and challenges that can exist. So I think that was still a great start. It's just something I knew wasn't for me for life.
So I think after a couple of years you learn a lot and then you can either get on track to be a partner or you can go off and do something else.

Jeremy Au: (10:32)
Yeah. So I think actually a lot of consultants who are listening to this podcast who are wondering about whether they should transition, I think.

Ren Yi Hooi: (10:39)
I realized that was your key audience.

Jeremy Au: (10:42)
I want to say fan mail, but more like questions and answers. And so they’re always kind of like, Is this the life or should I? What is tech? How did you make the decision to say like maybe consulting isn't the future for me, right? Because I don't think when you and I were in consulting at the time, we were like, OK, tech is the answer or tech is the future for us.

Jeremy Au: (11:04)
We didn't go into consulting thinking like that. So how were you thinking about it? For you, was it like, let's do the MBA and figure it out?

Ren Yi Hooi: (11:12)
Kind of, pretty much. In order to decide to do the MBA. I knew that consulting probably wasn't what I want to do long term, so I wanted to explore and figure things out, and I had this vague inkling that I wanted to go into something that was more socially impactful, but I didn't know what aspect that was, whether that was working for a not for profit or working with a company that's for purpose, whether that's in the tech space or something else.
So doing the MBA, I think, gave me the opportunity to try a couple of different internships. It's really fun, take on a couple of different projects in the impact space and just figure out a little bit more what I want to do. So I think the big takeaway for me was that I really enjoyed working with the Rockefeller Foundation, but it was something that was, again, bigger, longer term, a little bit more slow, slow moving because it takes multiple years to stitch together the sort of program ambitions they wanted to achieve.
Whereas my experience with a startup in Tanzania was really exciting because we were growing, we were acquiring like maybe 50 different clients every week, and I could see the difference it was making, making it possible to light up the people's homes. So then I knew post MBA that I wanted to work in a startup that's dynamic, fast growing, but still had a really strong social mission.
So I was quite attracted to find Bima, which I think then let me more into the fintech space. While at Bain, I had done a couple of fintech related projects, but hadn’t really decided to focus on that. And at Bima, I saw the power of financial services like insurance, not just to support transactions, but to help give people a financial cushion that they might need when times become difficult.
And the fact that this is possible even for people that don't have bank accounts, that don't already have access to other financial services. So I think being at BIMA and spending a lot of time on the ground with people that needed access to different sorts of support really helped me to see the potential of FinTech.

Jeremy Au: (13:19)
Interesting. I mean, I think one thing that struck me about what you just said was a bit of a Sudoku at least you have like knocking off the things you don't like, right? And you’re like, I don't like governments. So I definitely won’t like the slower governments. I don't like large companies. So I definitely won’t like very large companies and then you ever like work your way backwards I would like one like these large nonprofits if I do like any kind of like go way backwards, like I like small but not too small and somewhere in between.

Ren Yi Hooi: (13:50)
That's really interesting. I did think about it that way, but I think you're right, some of the decision making is like a process of elimination and I guess it's a bit like testing hypotheses in business. You can come up with a list of things that you think you might potentially enjoy doing, and then you can either prove that you like it and continue with it, or you can prove that you don't like it and choose not to do it.

Jeremy Au: (14:12)
Yeah, it's funny because I think for both of you and I think a big one we had a knock out was like Bain Prestige Mashburn Consulting, which is a big one because everybody is like, Wow, you had Bain, which is a great place to be at. Which is a great place to be at, right? Yeah, it's a great place to be at for some people, it's not a great place to be at for lots of people. So that's a tricky part to sadly discover, I think.

Ren Yi Hooi: (14:36)
Yeah, and I think that's also something to be said about what's right for you at a different phase of life. So consulting for me was a great first stage in the career, but not necessarily later on. So I think as you go on, you're learning needs evolve and what you want to achieve also evolves over time. I think it's quite normal to end up transitioning from one place to another.

Jeremy Au: (15:00)
Yeah, I think the genius of Bain as well is that they've also weaponized that as well, right? Which is that they know that pivot is going to leave at some point because of the type of people they're recruiting and they tell that upfront. It's like, hey, you can come here and use that, discover what you like and we'll help you get there. And when you're there, think of us as the alumni network. And don't forget to buy Bain when you need a management consultant to fix your problems.

Ren Yi Hooi: (15:25)
Yeah, that's true. I mean, I'm really grateful to have stayed in touch with some of the people from Bain as well. When I'm thinking of Southeast Asia, I still think about hiring Banies if there’s chance. I think another good thing about Bain was also the opportunity to do Externships. So they will say you can go off and spend six months somewhere and try it out.
That's what I did. I spent a few months at Starwood Hotels, and that's another good, I guess, lower risk option for consultants who are keen to explore something else, but they aren't necessarily sure if they want to make a full transition out.

Jeremy Au: (16:00)
Yeah, I think that Externship is a great way to help people like knock out their fear of missing out and say like, Oh, you think hospitality is fun, try working it, and it turns out you don't and aren't you happy to come back?
Well, not really right. But, you know, the glamor of the hospitality industry is a bit different from the mechanics of it. So some people like it again and some people don't.

Ren Yi Hooi: (16:26)
Yeah, I remember working at this thing, sandwiches as part of my work. And then, you know, you see the set of pearls and how everything is shiny and glamorous and amazing. And then you look at the back of house and it's quite different.

Jeremy Au: (16:39)
I remember like undergrad. And have you watched a movie up in the air? George Clooney?

Ren Yi Hooi: (16:46)
I haven't actually had. I don't think I have.

Jeremy Au: (16:50)
You have to watch it. OK, for other listeners out there, you have to listen to Up in the Air. It's a movie and it's about the story of a consultant who goes around and his travel lifestyle. And basically he's a new joiner consultant, gets tacked on to this veteran consultant and she's like super blown away by his glamorous lifestyle and is like super amazing and he's got all the points and, you know, the hotels, etc, etc.

Ren Yi Hooi: (17:19)
I got a bit.

Jeremy Au: (17:21)
And then turns out also he's got like no friends and no roots and everything. So it's a nice dual parallel life. I think I've I watched it twice. I think as undergrad I was like, wow, this is like amazing. And then I'm older watching it, and I was like, yeah, you know, I see it through the old veteran’s eyes, right?

Ren Yi Hooi: (17:41)
Yeah, that resonates. Yeah. I think any career choice probably will have its pros and cons. There isn't really a perfect job out there that’s got everything.

Jeremy Au: (17:54)
And there you are. Of course, you transition to do your MBA and I think so many folks at MBA kind of like searching for what to do with their one wild and precious life, whatever that is right. They’re all busy, exploring, doing internships because they're like, oh my God and they're all drinking wine and being very sad is like, am I doomed to be a consultant or banker or private equity? So there you are obviously thinking and exploring this aspect of the intersection of technology, fintech, and obviously some entrepreneurial side of it. How are you thinking about it?

Ren Yi Hooi: (18:28)
I think the framework that helped me think about it is Ikigai, so I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's like that intersection of what you enjoy doing, what you're good at, what the world needs and what can make you money and that sort of helped me to, I guess, think about the various options that were on the table and just reflect on that and understand a little bit more about myself and what kind of career choices could help that.
There was a combination of that and as I mentioned, sort of hypothesis testing or like learning by doing and trying out a range of activities that helped me to get signals to understand they were going to be the right fit for me moving forward. The good thing about the MBA experience is that just gives you time and space to do that.
So if you're in a full time job like consulting, it's really hard to take time out to step back and think about it. You can do so on weekends, but you might be quite tired already, whereas the MBA is there almost for that purpose of exploring and seeing what kind of jobs and careers you want to take on outside of school.
So I think just having the opportunity both to try things out, but also to speak to a wide range of people like over coffee chats and things like that helped me to better understand what other people had gone through and what options were available.

Jeremy Au: (19:49)
And I'm going to put you in a spot here because you just jog my memory about the debate we got in undergrad. So the tough part of the Singapore government was that it gave you a scholarship for university. Yeah, so the tough part about reneging on it was that you would have to break the bond and you had to pay for full rate for you to go explore a private career and in parallel for the MBA, you know, it costs money as well, right, to do it as well to explore yourself.
And so I think a lot of people would say like, well, for MBAs now, for example, you know, it costs money to explore to put this, I mean, obviously credential, et cetera. So how should people think about the expense or the ROI or how should they think about this quantum from your perspective?

Ren Yi Hooi: (20:34)
I think it's a tricky one because it's such a personal decision depending on where you're coming from, what kind of a difference an MBA can make to one's career. I think firstly, I must say, I've realized on reflection how incredibly privileged I've been to be able to go to Berkeley to make decisions like not taking the scholarship and to do the MBA, because especially working in a space right now, I see so many people that don't have such opportunities where the question is not - Do you go for an MBA, but do you go to school at all, or do you can you buy a washing machine or can you afford food for the next couple of weeks? So to be in a position is incredibly lucky. So I think then if you have that choice of saying I can afford an MBA, should I actually spend the money on it? It really depends on what you want out of that. I think I would encourage people to think about is this going to be the best route or are there different ways I can explore and achieve the same thing?
And I don't think there's a right answer either way. So for some people, getting an MBA, getting the brand name could be what makes the difference to being able to pivot into a career that has been their dream for years. And for some people it doesn't.

Jeremy Au: (21:51)
And the tricky part, of course, is that the dream like whatever the dream is, right? Like going into the MBA and you still don't know what your dream is; going to MBA to find out what your dream is…is a tricky one.

Ren Yi Hooi: (22:03)
I had good advice from someone. I can't remember who it was, it might have been one of our Bain colleagues saying that you should go into MBA with kind of a 50% idea of what you want to do because if you have no idea at all, you get completely lost like a buffet of options out there. You just be spinning a plate, and if you go exactly in knowing exactly what you want to do, then you might as well have found a way to do that first.
I think that actually makes a lot of sense. Go in with some idea, but some questions that you need to test out or that you don't have answers to.

Jeremy Au: (22:36)
Oh wow, this is actually really good advice. I mean, the way I think about it is like I tell people, like I said, MBA is not a church. So I mean by that is MBA is like an elevator is like it's going to help you get you to where you want to go. If you want go to finance it’ll help you get there.
If you want to move to America, it’ll help you get there. Yeah. You want to move to China, it’ll help you to get there. If you want to meet the US president, it can probably help you get there. But the truth is it won’t tell you who you want to be because the only way you are going to find out have to take a long walk. You have to sit by yourself and meditate. You know, you can't go for a coffee networking session and be like, Oh, now I know who I want to be.

Ren Yi Hooi: (23:26)
So I think that's true both for MBAs and actually even things like accelerator programs. A lot of the onus is on yourself to go in there and know what you want out of it because there are so many things that you could spend the time on. So yeah, like you say, it's about figure out your own pathway rather than expecting someone to shine a light for you.

Jeremy Au: (23:49)
Yeah. I mean, that's the awkward, awkward reality. And I think what's interesting is that there you are at and you explore these different internships and you kind of say like, OK, Roc-A-Fella is exciting, but it's not exactly the right fit again because it's a bit too slow. And then you're in Africa and it's the right speed, but it's not the right, I guess, geography and the right space right?
And then you find this almost there thing, right? Which is this fintech startup. So so tell us more about what's going on.

Ren Yi Hooi: (24:20)
Yeah. I think Bima was a great learning experience. I joined as their, partnerships manager in Asia. So what I was responsible for was finding new ways to partner up with both telcos, but actually new types of partners that can get people access to insurance, Bima had a unique model where basically people that don't necessarily have a bank account could pay for insurance using their mobile phones through their prepaid or postpaid plans.
And the way that that happened was by partnering up with telcos. But we're also looking at other innovative partnerships like, say, mobile money providers and where the people could get insurance through that as well. At Bima, I sort of had three different roles. So, first, I started in partnerships and then went on to lead a global customer experience, a project where I had the chance to spend six months in London, just a lot of fun, and then an option to open up to launch the Malaysia operations for BIMA, which I then saw as really exciting. And I took that because it was the chance to build up a team and business from scratch. So I think that was a pivotal moment for me because rather than sort of just working within big organizations or organizations of different sizes, I had the chance to almost start something from scratch. It's obviously slightly different.
You have a bit of a you still have support from the center, which I was grateful for that. A lot of the work was quite similar to what you have to do as a founder. You don't need to do the fundraising, which is good, but you have to do everything else. Hiring, operations, product, getting something to market and testing whether it works.
So Bima was a great opportunity to, yeah, just do that. There were a lot of challenges, but we were able to launch the product in six weeks, which was one of the fastest times among the various markets. But in Bima it's like really high pressure. And then we sort of grew week on week about ten times over the course of ten weeks.

Jeremy Au: (26:26)
One interesting thing is that lots of folks in Southeast Asia are, you know, launching new markets for these global companies, which is what you just described, is any advice that you have for people who are kind of launching these new markets or coordinating these global teams?

Ren Yi Hooi: (26:41)
Good question. I think a lot of the advice would be similar to any advice you would give a founder trying to build up a business from scratch, sort of understand the market, understand the problem, and think about how you can very quickly build and iterate to be able to test that out. Where something like Bima or the global companies, I think there is an added nuance of having to coordinate or and get support from the bigger organization and infrastructure and understanding how things fit.
So I think one of the frustrations but also learning point for me at Bima was going out there and sort of say wanting to sign a contract and then being held…or at the time feeling I was being held back because the global legal team would say no, there are some standard terms that we need to adhere to.
So I think you need to be aware that there are certain constraints within the organization to be aware of and to think about how to navigate that with stakeholders within the organization rather than just going out there and doing your own thing because it may not necessarily work for the broader company but at the same time, you also then can think about how do you draw on support from them. So if you need expertise, you need help, then you can keep in mind that you're not the only person working on this.

Jeremy Au: (27:57)
Any tips on how to get buy in internally as the country manager or the leader market launcher?

Ren Yi Hooi: (28:03)
It's a tricky one. Get to know a bit more about the people working in various parts of the organization, and it could depend on how things are structured, whether that's a global or regional structure. So Bima, for example, we have key decisions that needed to go globally, but also some things that needed to go regionally. And I think being able to build up the relationship with people is always key and understanding where they are coming from.
So you don't sort of just say this doesn't work and say no. You try to understand why is there an objection to something or why is there reason for doing something like this and understand and then have the conversation to say what can be done about this? So I think of building relationship with people globally and understanding where they are coming from and then also bring your own insights on the market.
So data on the market might be different. For example, examples of things that have worked well can then help to influence certain decisions.

Jeremy Au: (29:07)
There's a lot of code there. I feel like there's a lot of experience and hard won experience. Many battles there. So starting to wrap things up here, could you share with us a time that you have been BRAVE?

Ren Yi Hooi: (29:25)
Yeah, I guess probably I would say starting Lightning Social Ventures because it came at a time those personally quite difficult for me. It was right when things didn't necessarily work out, was spinning something out at Rails Bank and I was very unsure about what would be the right path moving forward. And it was also a time where I was looking at starting Lightning Social Ventures with no product, no team, and no money.
So it didn't feel like a brave position at the time. But I think there were some really great people that helped me along the way and helped me to realize that it is a step worth taking.

Jeremy Au: (30:05)
Amazing when you think about having become a founder, what has most surprised you about becoming a founder personally?

Ren Yi Hooi: (30:11)
That's an interesting one. I think that the sheer roller coaster and ups and downs that are involved, it's easy to sort of go into it thinking that you sort of hear that it's up and out, but you don't feel it until you go to journey and experience it for yourself. And I think for a lot of high achieving people, they kind of expect a linear pathway.
Like in consulting, you spent a couple of years at this promotion. Every time with a startup world, you want to…there's some sort of pressure to be growing month on month, but things don't always happen. You can have a beautiful financial model, but, you know, you've got one of the assumptions wrong. You need to iterate, you need to pivot and or you lose a team member and everything goes upside down.
So I think just feeling that and finding neat ways to deal with the highs and lows are, I think, a big learning or surprise for me as a founder.

Jeremy Au: (31:04)
Amazing, Ren Yi. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I’ll love to paraphrase three big themes as any consultant would do, that I got from this discussion.
The first, of course, is thank you so much for sharing your Sudoku career of Ikigai decisions. So I think about how you I think slowly make your decisions about how you experimented from the Singapore government to university decisions to management consulting to experimenting with various nonprofits, corporations and startups to land where you are today. So it is just amazing to hear that story. And I think some really good tips are on how to be thoughtful about each and every step, and I think that's really good advice.
The second, of course, is thank you so much for your very thoughtful thinking advice about where you are, in how to be thinking about being part of an MBA, being part of a consulting career, what the next step looks like, how to make the next step, how to think through that process very carefully and a very intentional way.
And lastly, thank you so much for sharing. I think really your heart of service, really about why you care about folks and why you keep returning to that credo service over and over again since you are young and returning that multiple times in your professional career and where you are today with Lightning and why you're pushing forward with this approach and the past where you wera a volunteer to being someone as a consultant, helping out, to being an intern again as an MBA intern, to now being a founder and helping out this way.
So really amazing to see that journey happen. So thank you so much, Ren Yi, for being here and sharing your journey and being an inspiration.

Ren Yi Hooi: (32:44)
Thank you so much. It was a really fun conversation and very happy to connect with anyone that wants to chat about decisions or collaborate on social impact projects. So yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.