Kwok Jiachuan: COVID-19’s Impact on Nonprofits, Conjunct’s Shift in Business Model & The Role of Capacity Builders - E543

Jeremy Au reconnects with Kwok Jiachuan, his first-ever podcast guest, to reflect on their journey from school friends to army roommates to co-founders of Conjunct Consulting. They talked about the challenges of starting and scaling a social impact consultancy, from early skepticism to securing funding and navigating the evolving nonprofit landscape. They also discuss leadership lessons, the importance of sustainability, and how their work has shaped the next generation of social impact leaders. The conversation is a candid look at what it takes to build something meaningful and why community matters.

1. From friends to co-founders: Jeremy and Kwok first met at 15 in a creative arts camp, later became army roommates, and eventually teamed up to build a pioneering social impact consultancy.

2. Solving a gap no one else saw: They realized nonprofits lacked strategic help while young professionals wanted to contribute, so they created a platform that connected both.

3. Facing doubt and rejection: People dismissed their idea, fundraising was tough, and they had to figure out everything from legal structures to convincing nonprofits to trust them.

4. Turning a passion project into a real business: What started as a volunteer effort had to evolve into a structured, financially sustainable social enterprise to survive long-term.

5. Adapting to a changing landscape: The social sector professionalized with more government funding and consulting firms entering the space, forcing Conjunct to evolve its role.

6. A legacy that lives on through people: Alumni have gone on to lead impact-driven initiatives, and Tribe Consulting, founded by former members, continues the work they started.7. Lessons for future changemakers: Passion alone isn’t enough—build for sustainability, find allies in the ecosystem, and focus on long-term impact.

(00:00) Jeremy Au: Hey, JC, really excited to have you on the show.

(00:02) Kwok Jiachuan: Hey, Jeremy. Good to be back again. I remember I was actually your first podcast guest all the way back when we started out. It's been amazing to see how Brave has grown.

(00:10) Jeremy Au: Yeah. You were my first guest in April, 2020 in the midst of the lockdown.

(00:15) And I wanted to start a podcast just for fun and. You were so kind to be my first guest.

(00:19) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah, no it's really nice. I remember back then we were doing like, we were trying to decide on the topics. We were trying to think about it and I was thinking, wow, okay, this is an interesting way to start a podcast in the middle of a lockdown as well.

(00:30) And now it's, I've seen the growth. I've seen the number of people who got here, the types of people that got here as well. It's just absolutely amazing.

(00:36) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And so now that, we have 60, 000 more listeners. It was a big audience and now, instead of this audio at a time, now we have, audio and video.

(00:45) I figured this is a good time for us to sit down and, not necessarily go over the stuff that we had but, just talk a little bit about some of the topics that interest us today. And a lot of people ask us about, for example, conjunct consulting, why we friends and what we learned about, public and civic society is some advice for people (01:00) who are like social entrepreneurs who want to build something in Southeast Asia.

(01:03) So I figured let's do it. I think we want to talk about three major arcs, right? I think first of all, what was our early relationship like as a recap and then two is what was it like building conjunct consulting and a 30, of course, some of the reflections and thoughts about it. So those who don't know you yet, could you introduce yourself real quick?

(01:20) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah, happy to. I'm Jia Chuan. So I'm from Singapore. I now live in New York, but currently moved between Singapore and New York as well. So I started my career in the Singapore government. I worked in a variety of roles from defence to social funding to also working on digital identity and digital payments products.

(01:36) Some of the products that, you see nowadays that are used every day in Singapore, like PayNow and SyncPass. I was one of the people that were helping to steer the business direction for as well. And after that, I move on to Google, where I currently work on the trust and safety team as well.

(01:50) Working on policies to make sure that our AI products remain safe that our user generated content products are safe as well, fighting misinformation, deep face and other issues like that.

(01:59) Jeremy Au: We are able (02:00) to look of course, at your, our past podcast together, episode number one. Guess if they wanna hear some of your history.

(02:05) But I, I want to recap some of that and I thought it was interesting because. We first met at age of 15, we were both at the creative arts camp, right? So we were both,

(02:14) Kwok Jiachuan: we've known each other for more than half our lives, which is

(02:16) Jeremy Au: yeah. So we were in two different boys schools and.

(02:19) Honestly, at that point of time, I thought your poetry sucked.

(02:21) Kwok Jiachuan: okay, I thought your poetry sucked as well. Because there's two different styles. It's okay, we made each other better.

(02:25) Jeremy Au: Yeah, we had two very different styles. Yours was more like the haiku, landscape, painting. Mine is the visceral, emotional, emo boy.

(02:35) So that's the thing, right?

(02:36) Kwok Jiachuan: in like our teenage years and we were trying to figure out like where we got on in our lives as well. But I think what's really interesting that was the first time that we met, but beyond after that, I think we moved on to like very different fields and yet kept bumping into each other again.

(02:48) So the next time I was there, it was actually in the army, right? Where I think our different strengths actually complemented each other. Yeah, we should talk about that because

(02:56) Jeremy Au: I remember I was like walking into the auditorium and (03:00) I was just like, Oh, I just got transferred into this new commander training program.

(03:04) And so I was just like, it's like first day of school all over again when you don't know anybody. I walked in and I saw you and you waved me very happily. And I was like, damn, I wasn't happy because I was like. I know you,

(03:15) Kwok Jiachuan: but I don't know you.

(03:17) Jeremy Au: And so I

(03:18) Kwok Jiachuan: was just trying to remember, Hey, that's the guy with the bad poetry, but he's coming back in.

(03:22) So now I have to be his roommate. And I'm like, Oh, damn. Yeah. So that's the part I didn't know.

(03:26) Jeremy Au: So I was like, you wave at me. And we walked in. And then later on, we turned out to be roommates. because we had the same stack rank by NRIC, right? So we both had to be in the beds next to each other.

(03:34) And then we became buddies, And at early days, I was just like,

(03:37) Kwok Jiachuan: Oh, but it worked out well. we became really good friends. I think bonded together by common experiences. I think that's the thing.

(03:42) And I think I remember even at a time during when we were talking about what could the future do? And I think I remember you at that time Actually talking about what you want to do to create impact for the society, which I think found its expression You know that struck me because I think I thought here's someone who thinks a little bit differently who thinks that you know It's not just something that you know, you want to make (04:00) profit you want to make money and end the day But you care deeply about society.

(04:03) I think that's something i've always admired about you as well And I think that's why after we came back from college, we were like, oh, you know When I think we were initially just chatting up and catching up on this idea to start a social impact consultancy, which eventually became Conjunk.

(04:16) So I think that was one thing that I've always admired about you, Jeremy, which is that you care deeply about, not just what's for within close to you, but what's going on around you as well. And, things like Conjunk, things like Brave, I think it's really an expression of the impact that you want to make here

(04:31) Jeremy Au: Thank you. Yeah. And I can tell you what I admired about you back then was that, you were a government scholar. And so I was like a really bad student at that point. I had really bad grades. and then you went off to be a scholar. So I was like, obviously there's a, at that time I'm just saying there's a status part, right?

(04:45) Cause you know, there's like scholars. And everybody else in Singapore is a non scholar. So that's one. So I respected you because you're smart, you're hardworking, you were on this track with the government that felt very unachievable to me at that point. That was one. And then two, yeah, I think you were just a very (05:00) solid dude, right?

(05:00) I think one of my big memories I had from that army time was that we had to dig a trench, remember? Yes. And I always tell people, I was like, when you dig a trench when it's very bad, first of all, digging a hole is not fun. And then I think the pilot was, there was three of us. And then the third person teased out and fell asleep and we had to go.

(05:16) And then the two of us had a trench for three people and then I'm wide and you are tall. And so we

(05:22) Kwok Jiachuan: got the worst possible hand.

(05:23) Jeremy Au: was the worst possible combination. And so the two of us dug, this hole and we basically didn't sleep the whole night. And then I think in the middle of the night, I think we'll just try to keep each other awake.

(05:32) So we play some of the small games hand counting games. Rock, paper, scissors, just to keep each other awake and then we'll take turns digging. And then at the end of the whole experience, I was like, okay, you don't have to dig a very Horrible hole together. It better be because nobody else will dig this horrible hole.

(05:47) You know

(05:47) Kwok Jiachuan: what this is in 2025 parlance? This is squid game, but we both survived. We played all the games, but we survived. Yeah, in my head I

(05:54) Jeremy Au: Eliminated, but yeah, so it was this but I thought it was a good experience. And I think we had a good time in army together.

(05:59) (06:00) And so I think I'm glad I think became really good friends. And after that, I remember visiting you in the UK doing a scholarship. I think I visited you briefly after I finished my national service.

(06:08) Kwok Jiachuan: visiting you when I eventually went to UC Berkeley to study as well. And then one of the enduring memories I remember for that was actually like some of these long walks that we took as well.

(06:17) And that's, I think, a feature of all our catch ups, right? Yeah. I come back to visit you, or when you come to visit me, I think we take long walks together and we talk and, I remember at a time we were just like walking and talking and I remember you just sharing about what you want to do, what you want to achieve and so on, and back then you were already part of the Berkeley group, which I think in many ways was also a bit of an inspiration for conjunct as well, what we did, right?

(06:38) So I remember, hey, yeah. This person is doing something quite different. And I thought that was really admirable.

(06:42) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think that's interesting because I had such a wonderful time at Berkeley doing the Berkeley group, which is a social impact consulting. And I think it was transformative for me because I spent my entire like university life at undergrad.

(06:53) Just consulting for different non profits. So I was working with the San Francisco Unified School District on the mental wellness programs. I worked with (07:00) several local and religious based medical organizations. So it was like helping them choose the healthcare IT system and helping them with the local vaccination program.

(07:08) So it was all very fun. And I remember coming back to Singapore and I was at Bain and basically it didn't exist. And then I started brainstorming with you and then I was like, Hey, it doesn't exist. And then it was just. So nice.

(07:19) Kwok Jiachuan: something about it? Yeah. We were like, Hey, we should do something about it.

(07:22) And then she did it.

(07:23) Jeremy Au: Probably the worst decision I've ever made in so fast. Because I thought it was going to be very simple.

(07:30) Kwok Jiachuan: took us like years of our lives building this thing. Yeah. if you think about the origin, like story of like conjunct, right? I'm just reflecting on it a little bit.

(07:38) And I'm thinking about the kind of like ways that we try to conceptualize it. I think part of it is also the Berkeley group, but part of it is also my experience with Isaac in London, where I think there was a lot of college students, or there were a lot of young people who wanted to do good, but I think they already know where to put their direction towards.

(07:54) And at the same time, they want to acquire. Real life experience as well. So they want to really make sure that, even though they're doing good (08:00) They're also doing well for themselves as well So isaac gave an opportunity for them to do some of these like job placements or internship placements with like companies as well So I like to think that I think conjunct was a bit of almost like the berkeley group Your experience in the berkeley group my experience with isaac But also our experience seeing you know What we wanted to do for singapore as well and trying to approach it in a different way going forward And we were like since nobody's doing it.

(08:20) Why not? Let's like set it up and yeah, I remember we were just like carving together, like a few slides, bring together a random pitch session. And in fact we were thinking that, nobody might show up, we had so many people come up for the intro session all the way back at this it was a clubhouse at yeah.

(08:35) Jeremy Au: Yeah. True top residents. Yes. So I was interning at Bain and then we put slides together and then I created a logo out of PowerPoint. So that was and I put a check mark from, the emoji into the center.

(08:48) So that was our original logo. And I thought it was interesting because. I think that was our first experience of entrepreneurship, in that sense of today, people also call it social entrepreneurship back then, because we just built some (09:00) things just because we thought it should exist.

(09:01) And we didn't think very hard. Obviously we thought hard about the design, the people, and we weren't thinking about at that time, funding or money, I think it was just like, okay, this is cool. It should exist. It's a problem for people like us. That there isn't a place for highly skilled volunteers to work in an applied way and vice versa.

(09:19) There isn't really at a time, nonprofits in Singapore did not have any access to consulting services. And so we were like, wow, this is a match made in heaven and so we can put something ground up.

(09:29) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah. So I think that's the interesting part, right? I think back at the time we were daring and I think we were.

(09:34) Young enough and brave enough, going back to the theme of the podcast Brave to try something that we were like, okay we're not sure if this is gonna work, but we're gonna give it a shot and we're going to depend on the grace and support of a lot of people around the ecosystem, whether it's like volunteers, whether it's universities, whether it's other nonprofits as well, and I think we can't underestimate the impact that conjunct did for the community But I think we also can't understand the impact of (10:00) what community did for conjunct as a whole.

(10:01) I'm talking partners, ecosystems, even like volunteers as well I remember back at a time when we were going out to initially pitch for our first clients Like St. Andrew's Autism Center, you know a few others as well and people will look at us and say, you know What a bunch of like young kids, what do you know about like social impact consulting and I'm really grateful at the time that we had our first, four clients take a chance on us.

(10:22) And I think, over time, we did multiple projects with St. Andrews. We did multiple projects with Lions Befrienders and all our other value partners as well. But I'm really grateful at the time that they took the chance on us and, helped us as well. So I think it's never just a one way thing, right?

(10:36) I think when we start something, it's never, I think people like to say, Oh, these are two co founders doing the same thing. I think beyond that, there's it's like an iceberg. There's so much down there that supports us as well. And I think we just want to take a moment to say how grateful we were for that too.

(10:49) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I remember that it was interesting because we had to meet these clients and actually we were just effectively just fresh university graduates. Obviously we had some consulting experience and so forth, (11:00) but I remember there was a lot of pushback in the early days. And I think I remember going through so much rejection.

(11:04) I think, you and I make it seem like a lot of people volunteer to turn up. But what I remember from that experience was I emailed every like group emailing list I was on. Yahoo Groups was a big one back then. Yahoo Groups. A few guru groups.

(11:16) Kwok Jiachuan: like MySpace and Friendster.

(11:18)

(11:18) Jeremy Au: Facebook. And so it was just emailing everybody just to be like, hey, blasting out for this volunteer information center. And obviously I think, out of like thousands of people who messaged, I think the first group was like around maybe 40 folks was in the room. and I remember people just asking questions like, this wouldn't work.

(11:32) And I think we had only like 10 folks roughly volunteer out of the group, maybe only two or three actually, but I think there's some great people. So there's like Claire Lim was one, David Tian. Some people just really stepped up in those early days to help us think it through.

(11:44) And. Yeah, we made such a crazy set of mistakes. I think we had to build a organizational charter and then we fired the first lawyers because it was horribly done and it never happened.

(11:54) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah. So I think we had to find out all these like twists and turns like going on. I think we had to find out even like how to register as a (12:00) society.

(12:00) Should we register as a CLG? That kind of like things. So incidentally after we did all this stuff and then now I find people coming up to me asking that. Hey, should I register as a society or as DLG for these community initiatives that I'm starting? And I think that's something with the benefit of hindsight, we can advise them on like that path

(12:15) Jeremy Au: well.

(12:15)

(12:15) Kwok Jiachuan: it's almost you learn, you don't die and then you try again at the day. So yeah, that was really eyeopening at least in those early years.

(12:23) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I think maybe what we should do is, we should actually do some separate like tactical. Pieces of debates on, all these questions in a future episode.

(12:31) But I think what's interesting is that you also mentioned the idea of like bravery and, I also felt like we were very naive at that point of time because we had no idea it was so hard, because I think obviously getting rejected sucked, but at least at that point I was just like, Hey, I'm just looking for, consultants and volunteers to help out.

(12:48) The charity clients also the rejection duty. because obviously we were new. So if I didn't feel that bad, we're like, yeah, we didn't believe ourselves sometimes. So it was like, yeah, if they reject us, we're like, it's not that bad. And also I think the (13:00) charities, the BWOs, actually very kind.

(13:01) So even when they said no, they were always very kind by nature. So they would never like hush. What I found difficult at that time was all the people on the side who were saying it's a dumb idea or it won't work. And I think that was really In reflection like a tough time because they were actually right in many ways there's so many ways we could have gone wrong and it would have worked out.

(13:19) Yeah, but it was just interesting to see that happen

(13:21) Kwok Jiachuan: yeah, I think for me I felt that it was more of there's two things, right? One is serves as fuel for the fire. It serves to say, okay, let's prove these people wrong Let's see how we can actually build up something that you know, eventually could really deliver impact number one I think two is that okay, if the sector is wide enough and I think this is one of the features of Singapore's social sector, social good sector at large, right?

(13:41) And there are many players out there that I think will that has like in a way, almost like many helping hands, right? The Singapore government likes to use this phrase called like many helping hands before, but where I think they bring together a lot of like different groups to come and help. So in that sense, I think.

(13:54) One, one thing that I was quietly confident though, was that I think even if we were getting like rejected left and right, there were (14:00) many people that we could continue to try to appeal to at the day. And I think we saw this very much in terms of like our, actually also our student volunteers and so on.

(14:07) And I think going back to our story, we had set up like the university chapters, when we were setting them out, I think a lot of people were expecting us to say, okay, as founders, you have to give like the direction and stuff, but we actually found that they were actually bringing their own ideas.

(14:19) They were bringing their own suggestions and they were bringing their own, almost like saying Oh, who we could reach out to engage going forward. So I think one thing that was heartening to me that I think always kept my faith in my conjuncturing was the fact that there's so many people who are passionate and want to do something that despite other people reacting it, I was confident that these people would actually be a strong call for us moving forward.

(14:39) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And we had such a great group also of other, like professional volunteers were helping us, right? So we had Ho Hui Fen we had Candice Chua, who is now my wife. But volunteers back then Curt Ho. So I think there's a whole list of people that was helping out.

(14:54) And I thought it was interesting because when we look at that list, for example, Sarah Lim was a friend of (15:00) mine from university. She came back, she helped out. I thought it was just crazy because it gave me a good lesson, which is that at the day, it's like, there's a lot of people who say no one's dumb, but if you have two or three people who believe in you.

(15:11) Then you just need to tighten your mental horizon to that smallest possible group, which is like this work on this very small tribe of people who believe and then just Get shit going right in this. I think that's the part that you get stuff done And then you don't need to know that 10 year five year future, but is that what's in front of you?

(15:28) Let's get it done. What is the next step? So that way you tune out the All the criticism and obviously it is a bit weird because there's some sort of level of permeability, right? Which is what is the right amount because criticism isn't wrong. Is this Negative in a sense so any can be a learning lesson.

(15:43) It can be a good feedback. So there's interesting Dynamic where you have to balance like a bubble where like you have to count on the inside to stay strong and keep going. Yeah. But you actually have to let enough of it come in and translate it positively so that you're able to work on that feedback.

(15:57)

(15:57) Kwok Jiachuan: And if I think about the arc of conjunct, as you (16:00) saw over the past, like 15 years as well, Our models continue to evolve and shift as well. I think our models also continue to like, change in response to that. But you're absolutely right.

(16:09) I think in terms of we have to listen to like feedback from, because the sector itself the social good sector in Singapore is also evolving. Back then, I think it was a very different like environment and there was less government intervention in terms of all government funding available for some of these how to put this?

(16:24) Operational or consultancy proof as now there is a lot more like funding. There are a lot more organizations in the space as well, right? So we also have to think about what is ultimately Conjunk's value proposition at the end of the day. And I think that part is really you have to think about like how people how people give feedback to you.

(16:41) Think about how that role is as well. But you're right about letting sound that in and at the same time understanding what your core values are at the day.

(16:48) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think you're totally fair about. What we brought to the table at that point, I think there two major pieces, right? I think the first thing I did was, and I think that's the part we were focused on was pioneering the use of (17:00) consulting services to augment some of the decision making for organizations.

(17:03) So we were working on the donation strategy or customer segmentation or kind of like services delivery efficiency. So I think we work on those projects. And so we were the first, I think they call it what capability builders or capacity builders.

(17:15) Kwok Jiachuan: Capacity builders

(17:17) Jeremy Au: at a time because nobody knew what to call us.

(17:19) And on the other end, of course, for us, we were actually like a talent ladder to help people climb the ladder from augmenting the skills, on a volunteer basis, but building out the skill set for. Passionate idealists who wanted to eventually join the social sector or be a societal and civic minded leader.

(17:36) so these were the two pieces and I think those were always intention. But I think on this side, you mentioned government funding as well. one really big point we got support was National Volunteer and Center. Lawrence Lee was in charge and they us the new initiative grants.

(17:48) I remember you and I were going there to pitch and we were listening to geeks in the pink,

(17:52) Kwok Jiachuan: yeah,

(17:52) Jeremy Au: which was our old Jason Moran song that we used to listen to on army road marches to jazz ourselves up. And I think that was a hundred thousand (18:00) dollars.

(18:00) Kwok Jiachuan: I think it was about a

(18:01) Jeremy Au: hundred thousand, yeah, around there.

(18:02) That was like absolutely key to helping us like get that initial hum going. it was transformational at that point.

(18:07) Kwok Jiachuan: And I think ultimately we had to like figure out how we had to evolve based on that.

(18:11) So I think one thing that conjunct Had to think about was ultimately what the model, would be like going forward, right? Again, we evolve our model because volunteers have a lot of passion and a lot of heart for a sector But ultimately, you can't always rely on volunteers as a whole to continue over a five, 10 year period as well.

(18:30) So I think we have to evolve in response to that as well. And good thing was that the support from ecosystem partners like MVPC, like Tokbot, all of these organizations, they really help us to think a little bit and try and sharpen our focus as to how we wanted to, build ourselves as a sustainable organization, if we could.

(18:45) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think the sustainability part, I think the part will be found easier compared to a lot of other. Organizations was actually the talent side because we had this very wide pyramid. We were very intentional to be like, okay, it's not like this top of the pyramid, whatever it is, but we need to build many stages (19:00) at each stage.

(19:00) And we assume that there's a very high attrition, right? So we, the way I always thought about it was like, it is a core, but the next level needs to be at least two to three times larger. And then the next day it has to be two to three times larger because this is not like a high paying MNC job where, everybody stays by default because high pay, et cetera.

(19:15) Then you can afford to be a little bit more, Even diamond shape, or even like a rectangular piece where everybody has that, you know I guess Japan style would be like a rectangle, right? It was in a sense that, everybody stays forever supposedly Yeah, but you need to have a very wide base and you have whoever goes to the next level You help them grow up.

(19:29) So I think that's the talent side we solved. But I think for us I think the financial side was something that we spent a lot of time debating, right? And I think at the start, we actually had taught ourselves as a society. Then we became a charity that we were working towards our company limited by guarantee, which was, and then eventually we're like, okay, this is a social enterprise that we work towards.

(19:47) And I thought it was interesting to see the evolution of language and yeah.

(19:50) Kwok Jiachuan: So I think that also, I think is in a way like rooted ultimately in the tension, between both, I think business model in terms of organizational sustainability and (20:00) impact I want to create even as we talk about okay, we have to try and create impact for others. We also have to make sure that we are sustainable ourselves and so on. And I think we saw the first kind of like big turning point, I would say somewhere around like 20, after three to four years after we like launched. So I think this was when the initial batch of like volunteers that had really, worked with us, created a lot of impact and stuff.

(20:20) They obviously everyone grows up, right? I think like life changes happen people get married, people advance in their careers as well I think that's a kind of like a future. And people like move towards the future So I think that first batch of volunteers were saying okay I may not be able to devote that much time to conjunct and I would want to do like other things as well in life.

(20:37) And that's completely fine from our end. I think then the question is where do we think about what made a sustainable model for us, which was why we started shifting towards more like a fee based like model. I think you were involved in some of the early discussions like around that as well. So I think that was one of the big shifts that we were seeing as well.

(20:53) Yeah.

(20:53) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And that's a struggle for us because, as a capability builder, we never got the exact words, I'll figure out at that time, (21:00) but there wasn't clear pots of money from the government or even from a foundation perspective for this, because a lot of it was allocated towards direct programming.

(21:08) So it would be like, Hey, I need to support children or elder care and stuff And even the public donations were very much cause based as well. And obviously a small percentage of that would go to indirect location. But for us as an organization that was entirely based on augmenting lowering the cost of these nonprofits it was

(21:24) Tough. And I remember going to this pitch and it was nice of them in retrospect, but it was a philanthropy advisory group and I just lost it. I was just so pissed. And obviously now retrospect, I regret it because they meant well, and they were giving me feedback and they're trying to tell us like, Hey, we should convert from consulting towards something more direct cause I was like, the whole point of conjunct consulting at that point was to provide that support.

(21:47) And I remember almost being on the verge of tears, but also being angry and then wrapping a meeting and walking out. And obviously now today, if I'm older, I would probably take more of a chill pill. I probably wouldn't have some of that emotion in me, (22:00) but I just remember that.

(22:01) And I also understand that they meant well, but I was just like, it was just a very frustrating moment because there was never that clarity.

(22:08) Kwok Jiachuan: I think the Singapore social good ecosystem has done over the past few years is that there are many more channels available for such funding.

(22:14) I think. To the credit, of the Singapore social good ecosystem has become a lot better because right now there are multiple, funding channels, for capacity building.

(22:21) I think people are also starting to recognize the importance of capacity building right? For non profits and social good organizations. I think they're starting to realize that you can't just focus on the front end, which is the Delivery of care the delivery of impact services, but the back end in terms of building your efficient operations making sure that your Organization runs.

(22:39) Well is equally as important So I think we're seeing actually that shift and you know I hope that konjang had played a little bit of a part in Highlighting the importance of the shift as well. And I think it is also to the credit of our volunteers, our staff back at the time, and also to the partners that we work with that help to educate that shift a little bit.

(22:56) So I'm, that's one thing that I'm actually happy about. And right (23:00) now, if you look out on the government websites, you see a lot more avenues, like funding, you see a lot more organizations whether it's Better. sg, whether it's like Champions of Good from MVPC that are pushing the importance of this capacity building.

(23:10) And so that's something that I think, I'm actually very happy about.

(23:13) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think it's interesting because we were looking at the role models in the US like Taproot Foundation was a big inspiration for us in terms of, working with this. And I think in Singapore, we were at the forefront of, at the time they called it skills based volunteerism, which is I think on the volunteer side.

(23:29) And then the other side is, a capacity building. And I think I would say that we actually played a really large part in it because we spent so many. talking to stakeholders in the government. Remember it was just asking us questions about does it work? Does it help? Do these nonprofits are they benefiting from it?

(23:45) What kind of support do they need? And I think structurally, I think the awkward reality of it is yes. I think there's a lot of help needed because if you look at the social sector and define social sector between the nonprofit side and the social enterprise side, like the truth of the matter is that the (24:00) people who believe in that cause Yeah.

(24:04) And they have to be passionate because it's a tough job, right? There's no natural business model like this, like taking care of the head of cats, welfare, let's say example, or, SPCA for abandoned pets. Like this, there's no fundamental business model because, this is a lot, is it, like ex convict population, right? Like there is a natural business model that happens for this flow. And so when you have very passionate people and you have a business model that doesn't work from a capitalist perspective, then suddenly you have this piece where, the work has to be very efficient.

(24:39) And so they're focusing on the cost. And then you have to figure out this, alternate funding situation from grants or government, from foundations for individuals, the donations. And that actually creates a lot of complexity because, but, in contrast, like if you want to write a children's book, it's very simple.

(24:53) You write a children's book that parents want to buy, then. It works, it's, it the wheel spins really quick. Exactly.

(24:59) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah. (25:00) And I think that's, if I think about that a little bit it's all right. So I think the second arc of conjunct in terms of figuring out the business model was one thing on reflection where I felt that

(25:09) We could have done a bit better on and so I think one of the reasons why we were actually severely hurt by COVID because back at the time, if you remember, social distancing measures, made it very hard, for people to gather, to meet.

(25:21) And I think as a consultancy kind of business, face to face interaction is important, people value for the services that you provide going forward. fast forward five years beyond our first initial shift from charity to social enterprise.

(25:31) I think one of the key reflections we were confronted and COVID forced us to confront that as well was like, okay, is this something that is truly sustainable? would it be better? For example, if we went all the way back to a volunteer model without staff, right?

(25:44) Simply because I think like non profits, and the social goods sector will be like, okay, our priorities are fighting COVID, making sure that, people are taking health. Do we really have the funds and capacity to focus on still improving our backend operations.

(25:55) So I think for us, that was something that we really need to think about in terms of our business (26:00) model as well. I think that's if I look at, again, at arc of like contract of few years right there, another. Another point where we will foster what model at the end of the day would be better, I think, for society as a whole, right.

(26:11) And for our volunteers, for our staff, for like people within contract too.

(26:15) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think if we look at the nonprofit side, we have the client side, I think there were three major trends, as well, that was happening. The first of all, obviously it was that it was more consolidation, that was something that, we, I remember the debate, we did a debating with the government about, so there used to be a lot more nonprofits.

(26:30) But a lot of them basically got consolidated. So there were like, fewer, if you look at the shape of those the funding and everything, but basically I think the perspective from the government and from some folks in the sector was that these large organizations have more.

(26:44) Critical mass to have the various functions I needed for compliance, for audit, requirements to pass, because there's a loss of public trust and faith because of like charity mismanagement that happened because sometimes the charities are too small or whatever it (27:00) was.

(27:00) And it also felt like they had ability to handle multiple programs. So I think the argument is really about economies of scale, but I think from our perspective was like, there's a kind of a consolidation that was driven top down and from the fact is, I think second was obviously the professionalization of consulting services as well.

(27:15) So I think the government was inspired by our success and so basically they went on to give grants and subsidies to, and so I think we saw professional consulting firms build up a government and charity support function. we finally got my, at that time, dream job, Bridgespan Group which was, a nonprofit consulting or Bain, which was my dream job.

(27:33) Never got there back then but finally expanded to Singapore, right? Okay. Under Lee Shelling, which is a fantastic Bain ex consultant and peer of mine. We basically had competitors on that consulting side as well.

(27:46) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah. I wouldn't call it competitors per se. So I think here's one point where my perspective would be slightly different from yours.

(27:52) I would see. It has people really advancing, the ecosystem like as a whole from like different perspectives and in that sense I (28:00) don't think in the sector I think like people like compete like per se right at the day I think there are different methods to achieve like impact and I think all of us have different perspectives, but yeah, absolutely I think after covid we saw a good thing, which is a lot more attention, devoted to capacity building, like after COVID as well. We also saw, a lot more government and like large industry players come in as well. And at the same time, I think we also saw a lot of number one, I would say not just ex conjunct alumni, but people who had seen the model and also people who had experienced the model before, also helped to start their own initiatives, as well going forward. So I think that those are some of the factors that honestly, I think like after COVID, let me think about the role of conjuncts, like what was needed as well. And what we were doing in terms of the sector as well. So I think that's one of the reasons why I think ultimately, we made the decision to not just to turn down some conjuncts operations over here in Singapore, but also in the knowledge that there will be many other groups that will still continue to carry on our work going forward.

(28:56) Jeremy Au: What's interesting, of course, is that Tribe Consulting, is led by ex conjunct (29:00) alumnus, right? And so I think the core of the work is the same. They're still working with professional volunteers, student volunteers, still consulting for charities. So in effect, I think the work continues, by function, by substance it's just under a different name.

(29:14) So it's been interesting to see that happen as well. Yeah.

(29:16) Kwok Jiachuan: I think the part where And if I can take this as a really a moment like personal reflection for right is that I think One point I've been trying to make, and discussing with you is that I think there are many ways to create impact as well, right?

(29:29) Whether it's through individual volunteers coming out to do impact, a student who wants to do something better, or a professional who says you want to give a little bit of your time to make something better as well. For me, what I really felt valuable was not so much the name or even the persons that are like leading the charge, right?

(29:44) In a sense, I think it's the fact that people have seen the viability of this model. They continue to devote time and attention, and effort to it as well, whether in a professional student capacity. So I think that's one thing that I'm really grateful for, right? If I look back across the Tens of thousands of (30:00) students that, Conjunk had trained.

(30:01) If I look back across the many professional volunteers that had given their time and effort to do this, I'll always remember the stories of people who actually said, Oh, I'm going to pull a few extra hours just for Conjunk in the evenings. I'll remember the students that I talked to who came back on the weekends to like, give their, to give their time and effort to Conjunk as well.

(30:17) I think it's two feelings in my mind. I think one is a feeling of immense gratefulness. I think like even though it's no longer operating Singapore managed to actually people to continue on this work as well, right? So I think I'm grateful for that and number two I think the admiration and the dedication of all the people who are still continuing to do this work as well It is not an easy job it is one that demands a lot of time and a lot of effort And, to some extent, often goes unnoticed as well.

(30:44) But ultimately doing that is, one thing that I've been very grateful for the past 10 years or so. And I'm very happy that the ecosystem has allowed, organization like Thrive, but also other organizations as well to continue to exist as well.

(30:56) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I think, one thing that I reflect is that, (31:00) after moving back to Singapore and working in VC as well as, startup executive life is.

(31:05) Actually meeting too many KonJung alumni so I think it's so many folks who are now dispersed across government, across the social sector across also startup and VCs as well who are really doing some incredible work as well. I think the alumni network has been really tremendous.

(31:19) And I think it reflects a lot about how KonJung really did a good job. I think the super strengths was really identifying talent and then grooming them and nurturing them and helping them get the next letter.

(31:29) Kwok Jiachuan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the parts that I'm proudest about as well, I saw CRVS alumni grow through that. I'm not going to like sugarcoat was entirely. I think there were always bumps and there were always forks in the road as well that we could have learned from, would I imagine that, we would continue to be growing as an organization as well?

(31:45) Definitely. But the fact is that I think circumstances within the social sector have changed as well. Us continuing to, putting our hands in the work of like our success organizations, I think felt like the right move for me as well. So I think that's something that I'm grateful for as well. And I think the alumni network (32:00) is one thing that we can always depend on to support our success organizations, wherever they come from.

(32:04) Jeremy Au: Now that we've gone through, I think obviously this arc and, obviously we continue to be quite plugged into the social sector and, one thing that I often get asked about is, do you have any advice for people who want to make a social impact, social entrepreneurship, et cetera, any advice or reflections?

(32:19) Kwok Jiachuan: So I would just say three points over here based on my experiences with conjunct biting also seen like models across the world. So the first one is, I think, go into it for the right reasons, right? Have a clearly defined like purpose and task as to what you're trying to accomplish and really try to like understand why you're doing it.

(32:37) I think a lot of work in this field is often thankless. It does, it needs a lot of effort. It needs a lot of work behind the scenes as well. And I think understanding, like, why you're doing this is something that will sustain you. even during the deepest, darkest times as well.

(32:51) I remember there were times where, honestly conjunct was also facing its own issues as well. And I think what kept me going was because I saw the passion of so many volunteers and (33:00) so many staff that I think like really dedicated themselves to the course as well. And I think that convinced me that, that was the right reason as why I was doing this going forward.

(33:08) So I think that's one. I think the second thing is to. Balance, I think your own sustainability together with the causes that you're serving as well, right? I think sustainability is often what we talk a lot about in terms of working with other organizations But making sure that our organization is sustainable in terms of a human point, a financial point, and an organizational health viewpoint I think that's something important I think we often have this time where in a rush to take care of others We sometimes forget about ourselves as well And I think making sure that we have a good foundation.

(33:36) we have a good kind of like ability to take care of ourselves, it's extremely important. So I think that's the second thing. The third point I'll make is that I think to find allies and like partners within the ecosystem. To me, I think like the social sector may evolve and change even faster than private sector in some regards as well, like care delivery is changing, right?

(33:54) The way we take care of people with disabilities, for example, will change very quickly as well, right? So (34:00) I think we always have to Think about like the shifts as well. And we also think about how the ecosystem is evolving in that regard So I think the good news is that again, as I mentioned earlier during the podcast that There are a lot of good partners that are out there.

(34:12) There are a lot of good sources of help that are out there as well. So if someone, if you're thinking of starting like social enterprise, you're not alone in that regard. So yeah, build those allies, build those partnerships. And that's something that's kept me going. Think on jump as well.

(34:23) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I think for me, my advice for social entrepreneurs is, I think twofold. One is your passion is going to be about five years. So even though. right now you're Very passionate about it. I think you're thinking about it in five year stages.

(34:35) Kwok Jiachuan: mine did ten.

(34:35) Jeremy Au: So I would say if you are a social entrepreneur and you really care about this cause, just remember that just because you care about this cause, doesn't mean that you won't care about it in ten or twenty, thirty years. But you want to think about it like a five year investment, right? And so you want to have that time bound ness.

(34:50) Whatever I want to build, I want to build it to solve the problem, but also become sustainable. Within those five years and in a way that can outlive myself, right? I think that's really key (35:00) for number one. I think the second piece I would say is that I think nonprofits often the phrase is that, we're the only place that when you work, you're trying to work yourself out of the problem.

(35:08) And I think that's a good and bad, or it can be taken left or right turn. I think one way to think about it is that, I think the negative way I would say I'm looking at it is that A lot of non profits and organizations don't solve the problem. So what I mean by that is I think you're taking care of the by product or the consequences of that system.

(35:27) But sometimes I often say if a social entrepreneur really cares about HR, I say, what's your most effective way of nuking the problem? It doesn't make sense. In a really systematic way. And actually that's actually quite difficult because sometimes like when you nuke the problem it actually doesn't change the, it doesn't actually match up with the modality that you want to provide.

(35:47) So just because, for example, let's just say you want to help youth with a certain situation. And you want to provide them retraining services. It's a good modality to do but of course, sometimes it's worth at least having that conversation before you start. Just be like, are there other places where I (36:00) can be in a government, working in policy?

(36:02) Can I, there are different ways to attack that problem and maybe setting up that social enterprise is not the way to do it because it doesn't truly solve the problem. So I think that's one side. But the other side of it is just yeah, I think there's a lot of good organizations out there. And you can let other organizations inherit the pieces as long as the work is getting done.

(36:18) And, the truth is the challenges of society today are different from the challenges of society 10 to 20 years ago. Like today, for example, like one challenge that people have is like AI may kill all of us, right? I'm just getting a sample, right? There are charities that are being built now to solve that problem.

(36:33) Absolutely.

(36:33) Kwok Jiachuan: Absolutely. And I think that speaks to the evolution of the sector. And I think that's also the. Fun part of it in that sense, right? the fun is something that will keep you going as well that you're serving different problems. It's an exciting space and it's an evolving space.

(36:46) So yeah, I'm looking forward to see, what we'll do to tackle these challenges ahead. So yeah, when I come back to Singapore next time, we should gather our contract alumni and see where everyone has progressed as well. I think it's fun gathering.

(36:57) Jeremy Au: Yeah. On that note, I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways from this (37:00) conversation to wrap up. So first of all, thanks so much for sharing about our early days as friends, but also building conjugal consulting and I think a lot of the concern, the frustration, the naivete, the courage, the criticisms that we saw during that time.

(37:12) That's number one. Number two, thanks for sharing about, I think our reflections about what building an organization looks like and what it means to have the succession. To have handovers, to continue building for the impact and the trade offs that we've made. And then lastly, thanks so much for sharing about, I think, the advice that we would give for people who aspire to be social entrepreneurs or want to create some impact in their life.

(37:32) On that note, thank you so much, JC, for sharing.

(37:34) Kwok Jiachuan: Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate it. Always a pleasure to see you as well.