Tsun-Yan Hsieh: Board Leadership (Sony, Dyson & Singapore Airlines), Art of Coaching & Positive Influence - E330

In this discussion, Tsun-Yan Hsieh, Founder & Chairman of LinHart Group, and Jeremy Au talk about three key themes:

1. Board Member Dynamics & Real Conversations: Tsun Yan shares insights from his experiences with numerous eminent companies and emphasizes the importance of both strategic and tactical aspects as a board member. He sheds light on the essence of real conversations and attributes of results, detailing the significance of pre-meeting dinners and side chats. He believes that being a board member isn't just about agreement, but also about bringing diverse viewpoints to the table. He recalls times when he voiced opinions that went against the grain and urged the board to revisit certain decisions, suggesting they were crucial in ensuring the company didn't overlook potential pitfalls or become complacent in its strategic direction.

2. Coaching, Consulting, and Positive Influence: Tsun Yan explores the art of coaching and consulting. Drawing from his extensive career and his journey in establishing a coaching business, he explains the nuances of providing advice and mentorship. He also discusses his co-authored book, "Positive Influence," and elaborates on the difference between being a leader who merely manages vs. one who truly inspires and drives transformational change. He underscores the distinct strategies required when mentoring fresh minds vs. seasoned professionals. For the former, the approach is more exploratory, given their potential to pivot in their career trajectories, and for the latter, it's about honing and refining skills, as senior executives often seek to perfect their craft or achieve specific leadership milestones.

3. Tsun Yan’s Personal Journey: Tsun Yan reflects on his curiosity from a young age, leading up to his days as a young executive. He narrates instances where he mustered the bravery to engage in lengthy discussions and shares an anecdote about entering a room and holding an engaging conversation for four hours. He shared that it wasn't just about the duration but the depth and quality of the discourse. He also discussed that negotiations and engagements often revolved around facilitating changes, requiring him to navigate the challenges of agreements with top-tier executives and always pushing for the necessary evolution.

They also delve into the evolving leadership paradigms in Southeast Asia, authentic communication in the workplace and how it can foster trust and drive productivity, the significance of continuous learning and adaptation in today's dynamic business environment, and how genuine feedback can be instrumental in shaping the leaders of tomorrow

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(02:10) Jeremy Au:

Hey, Tsun-Yan, I'm excited to have you on the show. You've recently written a book on leadership and I'm very fascinated to hear a little bit more about why you put it together and your journey. So, could you introduce yourself real quick?

(02:21) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Well, I probably am one of your oldest interviewees. I've been in business 45 years and thought that this would be a good time to codify something that's very instrumental in my journey so far. And I have taught school about it at NUS but also have worked with all descriptions of executives and younger people who are not executives, like doctors, nurses, engineers on their influence skills.

And therefore, I felt that I have basically want to get this out in the world beyond the narrow confines of my client activity, which tended to be one on one, or one to a small group of people.

(03:04) Jeremy Au:

Great. And you've had a long career as well that you mentioned in terms of business. Could you share a little bit more about what that career looks like?

(03:10) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Simply put, 30 years with McKinsey. First ethnic Chinese of any description, never mind Singaporean, who joined McKinsey. And then, after retirement, started LinHart, and that has been coming to 15 years ago. So that is the brief, and did a lot of things in McKinsey, which I wouldn't want to elaborate. But I will say this, if I had known that I was the one and only ethnic Chinese, in essentially the global firm, I'd probably be scared to death and drop out within a year.

(03:41) Jeremy Au:

30 years with McKinsey. My wife is also a former McKinsey alumnus and I was at Bain, so, thank you for forging the way. She was definitely not the first ethnic Chinese woman to be in McKinsey by then.

(03:51) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Wow. Wonderful.

(03:52) Jeremy Au:

So what's interesting is that, after McKinsey, you've obviously gone on to be on the board of many organizations, from Sony to Duke, NUS Medical School, the Singapore International Foundation, Dyson, SingHealth, Manulife, Singapore Airlines. So when you think about this board role, that's something that people have been curious about what is that transition, right? So McKinsey does consulting, but what does the board from your perspective, what's the relationship with the executive and management team?

(04:20) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Well, when I started to really try to help CEOs and founders and owners. I think McKinsey is CEO and down essentially, they might communicate with the board very occasionally. I felt that to really understand the forces, the pressures on a chief executive, I need to really understand how boards work. It's not theoretical, it's not the principles of governance, it's in practice. I may have overdone it because I went on boards that were on five stock exchanges around the world in addition to Singapore Stock Exchange and a bunch of NGO boards. Because then, you take, for example, on people compensation-related issues, you string it together. I have about 35 years of experience on that. So it really helped my work. But of course, you say, do you really need all that? I don't think so.

(05:10) Jeremy Au:

What have you found has been one of the challenges of serving in a board role from your perspective? One is multiple board roles. That's one, but what skills did you have to change or be different or change your approach?

(05:21) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

I had the mindset in the first board, which was Sony and Singapore International Foundation on the NGO side to say, you know what, I don't think about the board fees at all. I think about, hey, I have basically an arena to practice my influence. How do I get Japanese colleagues on a publicly listed iconic company like iSony to really accelerate each change, and we went through a very turbulent period. And thank God that Sony pulled through on the other side.

It was quite instrumental in working with the board committee that had oversight on the CEO evaluation and pay and ultimately the contract. And therefore, I learned a lot about influence, how to influence my colleagues. Literally, I was called outside director. You have directors who are all Japanese and you have outside directors, myself, and one other British person. So as outsider, how do work with colleagues? Because I find generally, now speaking away from Sony, the boards is a very blunt instrument. You hire, fire reward, punish the CEO. You opine and influence the strategy. You're non-executive. Therefore, the instrument is very blunt, and if you meddle too much and cross the line, then management is basically running around all day just to answer questions from the board. You don't influence and have adopt a benign neglect, things can go really wrong. And in many jurisdictions, such as Singapore or the United States, you can go to jail and without stealing money or cheating, you're not doing your job. And it's a criminal offense if you don't read the fine lines in the rules.

(07:05) Jeremy Au:

That's an interesting phrase. Benign neglect. Could you share more about what that means from your perspective?

(07:10) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Benign neglect is when people go and sit on board sometimes for the wrong reason. They think it is a prestigious thing to do after retirement from active service. So they go there they opine. They work. They see where the direction of the conversation goes and you don't think about your two things. It's very easy to neglect one, your fiduciary duty to all stake all shareholders, not just a majority shareholder or sometimes the owner. Second, is that you follow the crowd of where the thinking is going and stop challenging the broad direction and discomfort you have.

(07:44) Jeremy Au:

Right. Let's talk about that discomfort. Why is that discomfort from your perspective?

(07:49) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Discomfort is, it's easy to not raise the opposing view. You might just raise a question. It's a lot easier to say yes to the motion because there's a long set of things the boards have to do, for example, auditing their accounts and pay the executives and deal with reporting a listed company to the public, et cetera. And discomfort, meaning that it may be you're the only one who senses there's a weak signal. The problem usually come not in power of a hit you in the face, usually come in the environment, at least in my walk in the forest with as weak signals like we keep losing money on the on this particular product. And yet year after year, we haven't even seen a proper board discussion on it. So that is telling you and then you know it's never on the agenda, so you can just process, show up and process the agenda if you will. I do the duty of reading the paper, sometimes a thousand pages. Weeks acknowledged me that it is the sin of omission, what is missing from the agenda, that they say, hey, why don't we talk about this?

And it may be an inconvenient question, as innocent as it sounds. I was taken aside once by the chairman of a board, and then say, Mr. Chairman, that was not a friendly comment. I say, what is it not a friendly comment? We've been losing money on this product for so many years. Isn't it reasonable for me to request management for a proper review? And so that's what I mean by uncomfortable. It's not easy to to be the minority voice in the room.

(09:17) Jeremy Au:

I think it's interesting that somebody would ask you to step aside and I say, Hey, that wasn't a friendly comment. So I think there's a desire to be friendly to management

(09:25) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Friendly to where the chairman wants or the majority owners representatives tell you they want out of the situation.

(09:32) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. So how does that conversation happen? How do you build that relationship or trust or conversation with other boards, because yes, there's a vote perhaps, that you could have sometimes, but what is that process from your perspective?

(09:44) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

I think that is why, if you structurally, the board processes are well-known. You have two committee meetings, and then you report to the main board for approval by the entire board, such as the recommended bonuses for management. So, if you think that there are things the company is facing that is very crucial, it is really in the coffee chats, in the dinner the night before, the social time that you have an opportunity to sound out your colleagues and say, are you feeling the same thing I'm feeling, which is, we are given the, the Walt Disney version that we are not facing up to this issue that is staring us at us.

The other side is also possible, which is sometimes when things are really bad and board colleagues want to punish the management for not delivering on the results I would also try and say, in my view, I think we were overly generous when the results were great because of environmental reasons, not management doing and now I don't think management did a great job in a terrible market. We should not punish them. It's easy to go to the AGM and no shareholders is going to push against you. If you say, listen, oil prices are down and COVID around and we lost our shirt. Well, everybody in industry lost its shirt. So why shouldn't we punish the management? What is it? Wait a minute. It's all relative to the general trend. Did management do something really heroic to create a differentiated result? And that requires the courage, but also the influence skill to be able to, if you saw that, wait a minute, I disagree, I vote, you can't vote it down. Let's go on to the next item. And we're basically, what are you going to do? I say, wait a minute. You can do that once or twice, but you do that on every item, the chairman will now take you aside and say, we will not nominate you again.

(11:35) Jeremy Au:

I mean, we are both Harvard MBA alumni. And obviously the joke that they always have is when the environment is going well, it's all due to management contributions and when things are going badly, it's all due to environmental issues. So, how do you think about attribution dynamic from your perspective? How would you think about passing that from your perspective? How do you tell what is the manage? Because every time, the results are good, management team is like, this are all the things we did, and everything's a bad, it's like, this is all the environmental competitors. From that perspective. So, I mean, I think there's nothing to do with management teams. That's a natural human impulse. I can't go through that as well.

(12:09) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

First of all, it behooves the directors to really do work to understand the industry. So it takes good, for example, culturally, it's much easier for you and I to go start an airline. I mean, whether that's wise or not is beside the point, than for a branded premium airline like Singapore Airlines to start it. So when management is able to create the subculture, when I visited the school the first time I became a director, I was quite happy that they had a very modest office. One room in the terminal, in one of the terminals in Changi and no private walls, and everybody is in very scratchy fighting mode and great morale.

And I say, wow, management who let it do something really good. And we broke even in no time. Now to me, it's easy to say, listen, we had all the help from the parent airline, but wait a minute, how many low cost airline was able to make money? And they may be chasing each other and cutting prices by the end of the day.

(13:11) Jeremy Au:

That takes a lot of work. I'm so curious, because you graduated from Harvard with your MBA in 1980, and that's, 43 years ago. Time flies. I'm just so curious with your younger self have envisioned who you became today. I'm just curious, over 43 years, what things have stayed the same and what things have changed from your perspective, if you remember what you were like when you were in 1980?

(13:31) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Well, number one, then it's easy to talk about the things that I can't say. Number one everybody tells me that I'm very curious. And I was curious then to join a business that nobody in my family, extended family understood what it was. McKinsey, they say, what do they do? Forecast GDP. That's the extent of the response. Why don't you get a proper job in a bank? It's basically the response I got, but I was curious because you are curious. You do certain things that you wouldn't have done. So for example, I tell myself nobody tells me that never give the same speech twice. You know what that means? That means every same time the topic, I'm the go-to person on the CEO transition But if I give you the same speech, I won't be motivated to be at a cutting edge. But if I tell myself that was fine last time, but what have you learned lately that you can think about this, say, I was in a later part of the pandemic. I was on a panel with with Piyush Gupta and Jessica Tan, two of our famous CEOs, and the topic was driving strategy growth post-COVID normal, and when it came to my turn, I was the least famous of the three.

I say my difficulty in the first place is that I don't believe that there will be a normal. It's going back to the old normal. Things will be different in at least two ways. One is you end up with a different normal. That's one possibility. The other one is we will never settle down to a normal because some other stuff is going to hit us. Sure enough, even if you don't read the papers and look at the climate and look at the geopolitical and so on. So we are living in a world where there is no normal. Tomorrow is a new normal. The day after is another one again. So how do you think about strategy? I can't dish out what I learned in HBS 1980. It doesn't work. Curious, allow me to challenge myself, allow me to expect change. And as all my bosses in McKinsey said to me, Tsun-Yan, the one thing that you, for sure, is you are always forward-looking.

(15:32) Jeremy Au:

That's amazing. And, on that note, from what people told you, I think what was the best advice you ever received and who and why from your perspective?

(15:40) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

I actually have five best advices I got from my five mentors. So my first advice to my younger self is it's a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun to learn different Kung Fu from five different masters. And I was not out, strangely enough, I concluded that I could not be any one of the five. I have to be different, but they stimulated me to discover what would be this 70-year-old Tsun-Yan . Good, bad, or indifferent, I have to find what that is. But that is the benefit of having five mentors. And the other thing that I found very interesting is that there are some principles that are obviously resonating with the values that were there, but you are less conscious of it. And therefore, very quickly, you say, if this allows this mentor to go that far in the world, maybe I have a chance by hanging on to it, no matter how much I was down, kicked when I was down and beaten up I could still get myself up in the hope that maybe there's a good turn of event that holding onto those values would survive. So that's very helpful to my journey.

(16:48) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. You also give advice to other folks, right? You've been building out this coaching business for so many years, you've coached CEOs and so many people in the industry, and I think you started to codify this obviously in your book. But what is your key framework that you think about how you coach or support or counsel business leaders?

(17:05) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

First of all, coaching is a one only one of eight things I do. I don't think I'll survive just being a coach because at the very end of what I do, which is focusing on founders owners and CEOs, coaching is fantastic for the 27-year-old and you say, you know what do you want to be when you are fully fleshed out and mature, or if you don't get along with your boss or don't like the company, what is so big deal about switching? But if you're putting 30 years in the company coming out for the last lap to become a CEO succession candidate, that's a different story.

(17:40) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

So I think that's the first thing that is different from what I do, because in that, oddly enough, very short time frame, the more senior you are, the day of reckoning is always very close by, very counterintuitive. When you're 27 years old, as I say, you have all the latitude to make mistakes and quit, or find another mentor, sponsor, whatever. So, the first thing is therefore, coaching is never enough at the top end. This is a misunderstanding in the marketplace. So what else is important? You have to catalyze. There are things that the senior executive in the short two years day of reckoning has to make happen, not just deliver, but, somebody who's an introvert, who's otherwise a fantastic leader, he or she is going to miss the brass ring simply because people say you put him into the Shangri La boardroom for a cocktail and he will stay, you find him in the same spot an hour later, so does he look like a CEO? Nah, right? But I'm there to sort of say, wait a minute, I stand for truth and light. You guys are judging the book by the cover. My job is to A, go inside the book and tell you the different qualities of this leader and work with them to see if we can overcome that. Now, I can't make an introvert into an extrovert, but I can help the person increase their extroversion. And therefore, I catalyze and I advocate. We all know about advocacy. Coaches don't do that. It's against the rules of the ICF, the International Coaching Federation. But I do.

(19:08) Jeremy Au:

So, when you say that it's like against the rules to coach, you're also catalyzing and you're advocating, what does that combination look like from a client's perspective?

(19:18) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

It's like, you get outcome oriented, as you say, in one year, 18 months, pick a horizon, and you say what is it that is reasonable to expect yourself being able to do consistently, behave consistently? How do you want your stakeholders to see you? They see you this way. You can go around do a landscape, if you will, of what the landscape of perception is. And then what would that perception, if I go do the same exercise or interviewing, a third of the board or your peers, your immediate and your customers, and then say, a year from now, what are the defining headlines and I will be there to say, well, no, that's not realistic. Frankly, that's nice, but frankly, you don't have to do that to win the race.

Yeah. So given that, then I would say, here's the things you need to do. Let's talk about me stimulating you or give you ideas or put you in front of other CEOs I have worked with. So for example, if you're a first time CEO, Jeremy, there are lots of things going on. And it is good to sit down for dinner with five other first time CEOs that I work with. And the dinner is about not great CEO leadership. It's about, hey, what mistakes did we make in the first year? What about people? How many can I afford to change? How many must I keep? How do I motivate everyone? Because I needed everyone to roll in the same direction. So there are common themes and how do you manage the stakeholders? Stakeholder management in the CEO office now. Around the world, not just Singapore, but Singapore is no exemption. It has gotten very complex in the last five years.

(20:54) Jeremy Au:

How has it gotten complex over the past five years?

(20:57) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Well, the average industry, I'm talking aggregated a lot, you may have your board of directors, you may have a significant shareholder, you may have a regulator if you're a telco, you are regulated by IDA. If you are hospital will be regulated by MOH, et cetera. If you're airline, CAS, et cetera. But now, with all the the turbulence and volatility, it's not just the regulator talking to you. First of all, you have very irate customers who don't get their bags. If you don't have the bags loaded and if you are under great financial distress not just the financial markets, markets don't come to help just when you needed the most help. You had to find creative ways or to reach out to stakeholders. So that's, I would say the period of the last five years. The complexity of managing stakeholders have increased maybe tenfold, to put it conservatively.

(21:52) Jeremy Au:

On that note, could you share about a time that you personally have been brave?

(21:56) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

My colleagues will tell me that I may be foolhardy, but I am very courageous and I've been brave all the time. But I can tell you a few quick anecdotes. One was when I was a second year associate at McKinsey. By the time I reached the client site, which is in Norway, the McKinsey team was told to pack up and the chief technology, which was a n equipment manufacturer. So the technologist is a great engineer and he's a great in inventor, if you will, can be getting along with the CEO. That's not enough. We were told to pack our bags, so since they incurred big, great expense to show up, the partner said why don't you take, at that time, the document and see whether you can go into the lion's den and take him through it and he may change his mind and not veto our our project?

So I went in there. And so what have I got to lose? I mean, everybody else was thrown out, if you will. So I went in there and the first thing he saw me, he said, Tsun-Yan you must be very good in your math. I would say, well, where did that come from? I got a seven in an O-level math, and in Singapore terms, that's pretty bad, and at my age, I don't mind talking about it. So, I say, where did you get that impression? I've just shown up. He's always saying, oh, I have a Malaysian wife and they tell me that we send our kids, in the younger days, to Singapore for private education and the people in Singapore, their math, math is fantastic. And you know, we started talking for four hours.

Three hours was about personal things. And it was not intentional. I was just reacting to the first reaction. They were expecting a white face and here comes a Singaporean. So at the end of that, I say the executive summary, at least I have to take you through because otherwise I can't say I discharged my duty. By the second sentence of the executive summary, he says, let's not waste time. You go tell your partners that so long as you're on the team, we will use McKinsey. So, in fact, my stay in Scandinavia, was extended for the full year. It was a three-month project. And I had become a project manager thanks to that guy. But then, the rest of the time I was living up to his kind thoughts and confidence, which I would say today unearned. I spent the rest of the time earning that confidence and trust. But I was unfazed. I could have been crapping in my pants going in there because I was very junior. I was 14 months with the firm. Life is full of stories like that.

(24:27) Jeremy Au:

You said you have more stories as well. I'd love to hear another story.

(24:30) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Okay, well, I have the stupidity or whatever it is to walk up to the shareholders committee at McKinsey and propose to him that, hey, for every hour of service that we have, with our clients, there's another hour lurking out there, which if we, it's an entirely black continent. I started to give my views about the future of advice, not the future of consulting, because consulting is a subset of advice and all the different players and so on. You see, as you look at not which law firm is doing, which shall we say professions are doing well, whether the accountants are doing well, the top lawyers are doing well. By name, the very best lawyers in Singapore, the very best accountant in Singapore, and you can go to IRAs and check how much money they make and they are fantastic. You get to know them. They can pull rabbits out of a hat. It's not just that they sit there and work their associates hard. They are fantastic in pulling rabbits out of the hat, out of personal experience, by the way. It makes these people great. And that came to one point regardless of consultants accountants or lawyers, and that is that they can treat their clients as people. People have needs and you just don't treat them as businesses, as a a cardboard, a picture with a stamp across the face that says CEO. And you start talking to that cardboard as opposed to the person behind it. And I say, I try very hard to get them to see that it was not entirely successful because they felt that it's a lot easier to teach associates how to analyze than teach associates how to understand and work with human beings.

There are many stories of during the financial crisis. That my colleagues asked me to go and help with a leadership situation. These are highly personal stories. Some of which got into the book and I obviously recommend it. But one that comes to my mind was a very famous Korean chaebol. The chairman who made the chaebol what it is today told me, I keep telling your partners and they don't understand, maybe you can help, since they say that you are different, a little bit wild and wooly. So, I have only one son, and by the time he's 40, arguably 45, he's me. I don't want him to be non-executive, I want him to be like me, executive chairman, to direct the company and not just be a shareholder and collect dividend. So, it's a single pass, no fail assignment. If, you know, CEO is well, what's the worst case? You can change the CEO. You have a succession. You have people within the company that you can choose or outside. But if you're a family business, I say, oh, wow, single pass, no fail. Where did I hear that before? It was in this blasphemous of a steel making business. You charge the iron ore and slag into the blast furnace and if you made a mistake, you cast the bars instead of plates. What do you do? You send it to the blast furnace and melt it down for another pass. Well, if I have one son, he's now 32, by the time he's 48 years from now. So his question is, can you help me? I said, well, I've never done that before because I don't give any guarantees.

Number two. Would you be around for 10, 15 years to see this one through? At the end then, I made up my mind, whether I was with McKinsey or not, I'm going to see this one through. Now, it takes personal courage to to have situations like this and say to myself if I want to be, if I were not brave, because I'm curious, how do I have make the best of a situation? I have not come across any clients whose son didn't pass high school or Chuan at university. They've all gone to the best schools. That's par for the course. But what makes the difference? You've got Goldman, you've got McKinsey, who will now routinely handle a great number of seance. But what is it that I can do for them that is really working with the raw material of the human being? And let those qualities express themselves in a way. And would I have the courage to be able to push back and say, you know what? No, the best expression for him is, sorry, not in your company. As much as it is a big chai bowl, but something else.

What do I do with that? Those kinds of things. It helps to have the experience of being able to go back before I sign on the daughter line for the 10-year engagement. It's to say, you know what, may I reserve the right, because I never met you before. I have not yet been introduced to your son, but can I get two wishes that you have to promise me? Number one, anytime I think you are the problem, I will come back to you. You are stopping him from being the best he can be going to hear from me. And you promised me that you are not going to shut me down. You've got to listen because I don't say those things lightly, because it is, it will really test whether you are truthfully trying very hard to pass this on to your son or daughter. And I have to tell you that there are cases in which the older generation is having so much fun, so much power to play with. Theoretically, who doesn't want to invest a little bit for the son and daughter, but at the moment where you think, yeah, if you're doing such a great job that the children are pressing against the older generation and say, when is dad gonna check out? Well, I can see very ugly power play come in. I mean not all the time, but I'm telling you, being brave is not so much, if you sign up for advice, here are the five things you do is one thing. Being brave is being able to cite the risks then afterwards hold them to their word.

(30:03) Jeremy Au:

Yeah. On that note, thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways I got from this conversation. First of all, thank you so much for sharing all your experience of being on a board of so many illustrious companies, but also being both strategic about what the real conversations are, about what the real attribution of results are and what the real role of a board member is, and also actually go into the tactics about it, making sure that I have the conversations the evening before and the dinner, having the side conversations about being the contrarian voice, about not being afraid to speak up when you see something that's there. So really great encapsulation lessons there.

The second, of course, is thank you so much for sharing about your perspective on coaching and consulting and how you think about the advice and advisory that you need to do to do that. So you shared so many different aspects about how you've done that in your own career, but also in a context of building this coaching business. And now you've encapsulated that in your book, Positive Influence, which is available on Amazon and booksellers. So make sure to check it out and read up about all the lessons there about what it needs to do to get leadership to the next level, especially when there's a difference between coaching for young people who have the opportunity to quit or change jobs or change careers versus I think senior executives who have to like you said, reach out and grab the brass rings there.

Lastly, thank you so much actually for sharing about your own personal experiences. I found that really fascinating to hear about what you were like. The fact that you're always curious from a young age and a young executive to also your personal stories in terms of being so brave to walk that room and just chat for four hours, even though there was nothing left to lose, but you still went for it. And I thought it was a really great story. And I think it's also interesting to hear about your later conversations and engagements about negotiating that space and agreement with senior executives about what needs to do in order for change to happen. So, thank you so much for coming on the show.

(31:51) Tsun-Yan Hsieh:

Thank you, Jeremy for having me. This was totally spontaneous and thank you for making me talk naturally.