Vietnam Funding Gap, VNG & VinFast IPO and Zalo & TikTok Shop UX - E314

Valerie Vu, Founding Partner of Ansible Ventures, and Jeremy Au took a deep dive into Vietnam’s tech and VC landscape. They discuss three main topics:

1. Vietnam’s VC Scene: Valerie shares the primary driver for her initiative to build a Vietnam VC fund is the glaring funding gap in the country, particularly for early-stage companies that struggle to secure the capital needed for growth. The fund aims to bridge this gap and foster a more robust ecosystem for startups in Vietnam.

2. VNG and VinFast IPOs: They talk about the much-anticipated IPOs of tech giants VNG and VinFast. Valerie points out how VNG's super app, Zalo, brings a unique set of services to its users such as messaging, social networking, and e-commerce, setting it apart from similar apps like WeChat. They also discuss how VNG and VinFast aim to tap into international capital markets and how the U.S. stock market offers them a broader platform to raise significant capital and gain international recognition. Valerie also names companies that are poised for IPOs such as Momo, Tiki and more.

3. Zalo and TikTok Shop UX: Valerie shares her hands-on experiences as a user of various tech products, such as Zalo and TikTok Shop. She’s impressed with the seamless in-app shopping experience on TikTok, contrasting it with other platforms that require users to leave the app to complete a purchase. She shares how Zalo has deeply localized content that recognizes and adapts to the local Vietnamese audience’s preferences.

Jeremy and Valerie also talk about Vietnam's export-oriented economic model and its associated challenges, especially in light of reduced orders from major markets like the US and Europe, the diverse tech ecosystems across Southeast Asia, and the hurdles Vietnamese startups face in terms of profitability and listing regulations.

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Jeremy Au: (02:11)

Hey! Morning, Valerie. Good to see you.

Valerie Vu: (02:14)

Hey, good to see you, Jeremy.

Jeremy Au: (02:15)

Yeah, well, really excited to have you. Now we've obviously done two podcasts before. Once introducing yourself, the other time I think we were discussing how to launch your podcast and some of the talks that we had, but now I'm excited that we're going to do a monthly show about Vietnam and Southeast Asia. Isn't that crazy? Once every month.

Valerie Vu: (02:33)

Now I'm excited. Yeah.

Jeremy Au: (02:35)

Yeah. So Valerie, could you just introduce yourself real quick for folks?

Valerie Vu: (02:38)

Sure. So my name is Valerie. I'm founder of Ansible Ventures, a pre-seed and seed venture capital fund based in Ho Chi Min City, Vietnam. I launched a fund back in 2022, but I have been in the VC space for the last four years. Previously led Vietnam market for Venturra. So, I've been a loyal fan of BRAVE Podcast and that's why I was in BRAVE for the, past two years, and now co-hosting the Vietnam season or like a special edition with Jeremy monthly now.,

Jeremy Au: (03:08)

Yeah, this special season is because a lot of folks ask us about Vietnam and I'm like, yeah, I can talk about Vietnam. But you know, who would be really great would be Valerie, because Valerie's out there, she's a VC, she's a fund manager, and she's somebody who's Vietnamese. So this is a good way to get that point of view.

So I think one thing I always remember a little bit is that, I've seen you do over the past couple of years, obviously being a VC at Ventura, and then also set up your podcast. But, why did you decide to build a VC fund? Because it's so hard. You got to talk to LPs, you got to set up the fund administration, got to build a deal flow. So why did you decide to build a fun focus on Vietnam?

Valerie Vu: (03:45)

Yeah, I think that I saw the gap in pre-seed funding, especially founders who want to start a company with just an idea but they have the right experience, have the right networks in that particular field, but most of the VC funds in the market, kind of demand or ask for some certain traction, certain numbers that this founder might not be able to show immediately. So I see that likes precede funding gap. So I see the opportunity for me in the second biggest bigger reason is I just want to focus full time in Vietnam. Previously, I had to also cover other market, like the Philippines Indonesia, Singapore. But looking back, stepping back, what I want to spend the most and make the biggest impact in my life is to dedicate to Vietnam. And that's why I launched Ansible and I still work with Venturra a lot. We co-invest in quite a large number of deals, even when I'm in Ansible. So we still have a really strong ties, strong relationship with Ventura. But yeah, the main reason is I just want to dedicate more time into Vietnam.

Jeremy Au: (04:48)

Yeah. And what's interesting is that you mentioned that there is a funding gap at the seed round and pre-seed level for Vietnamese companies. Could you share a little bit more about that? Because lots of folks, they've obviously been in the Vietnam, they've worked in Vietnam, they've invested in Vietnamese startups over time. But what does it mean for this gap to be happening?

Valerie Vu: (05:05)

Yeah. So, maybe I can share an anecdote for some of my first few investments. The founder was CFO and COO of Tiki. Vn, which is used to be, the largest local e-commerce marketplace in Vietnam. Well, now they're replaced by Shopee and TikTok shop and the two players are fighting for the number one spot. But Tiki.vn used to be number one and if you look at locally homegrown marketplace, Tiki is still number one. So he used to work for Tiki and build Tiki, from the early days for almost 10 years. I have started to have a conversation with him since 2019, so really, like early days and I saw how hungry and how driven he was, really wanted to start his own business understand the merchant, especially the online merchant's behavior in Vietnam really well. But he couldn't really gather strong enough confidence to actually leave. Tiki.vn because, he's been an operating shoe for so long.

So much time that he doesn't know what VCs are looking for. Maybe like he need some traction or even like what business model to he need help with fine tuning the business model when he launched the first startup. So he didn't really gather the full confidence in readiness to actually leave Tiki until 2022, which was last year. And because I have been building relationship with him since 2019, we got so trust in each other that I was among the first few investor that he actually called and we brainstormed about how should we structure the pitch deck. How should we structure the round? What equity, what instrument are we using? And what was the product that we first launched to the market, and how should we pivot it? So that's like funding gap that I was mentioning about, because when he was still Tiki, even though we know that he wanted to do startups, I don't think a lot of investors are willing to take risks when he doesn't even have a company yet, let alone like traction.

Jeremy Au: (07:05)

Yeah.

Valerie Vu: (07:06)

So he launched a B two B FinTech company and I was among the first investor to back cash growth.

Jeremy Au: (07:11)

Awesome. I think definitely there's a huge amount of importance of having local investors, helping local founders because, you can't do everything over Zoom. And especially for the pre-seed and seed stages it's really important. So, on that note, we always wanted to cover the monthly tech news covering Vietnam. So, the big ones that happen, at least people are sending me about are these upcoming IPOs, one has already been completed for VinFast, which is an electrical mobility. And the second, of course, would be the announcement of the plan IPO for VNG Group.

And obviously there's some excitement there as well. We're not like stock market advisors to talk about whether you should put money in or not, and so, so forth. So we're not talking about stock market price outlook. But I think what would be great is that maybe we should just do a quick description of what these companies are. So, why don't we describe VinFast real quick for those who don't know. Could you explain what VinFast does?

Valerie Vu: (08:00)

Sure. So, as you mentioned the entire Vietnam really have only about between three to four companies that have scales and have ambition to be listed globally specifically in NASDAQ in the US, which is the largest stock market in the world. So VinFast is the first company that have done so. So VinFast is is an electric vehicle company. They already have product and revenue coming mostly from Vietnam, selling EV car, EV motorbike as well. But they have much bigger ambition. They want to enter US market and actually, they began building a factory in North Carolina, in the US. So I think the first company in Vietnam that has done so. That's why they recently IPO in the US market. But you know, they filed the pre-IPO filing last year.

So VinFast is a subsidiary of Vin Group which is the largest conglomerate in Vietnam that was started 30 years ago. So most of the revenue come from real estate, but you know, they also diversify to education, shopping mall, hospital, even digital economy as well. They used to have their own e-commerce and they also have a retail, but the CEO and the chairman really divested the retail part to just focus on VinFast right now. So he's the whole conglomerate is really dedicated to the next kind of the next big thing, and for the group is electric vehicle. So they believe EV will be the next future. And that's why that's where they spend the most time in right now. So that's VinFast.

I think for the tech community, we are more familiar with VNG. VNG is the first tech unicorn in Vietnam. The largest portion of the business is actually from gaming. So it's a very similar story with Sea Group. They're starting out from a gaming company, but then because gaming is so profitable, they expanded to other digital businesses such as communication and media, fintech. So they have a payment arm which is Zalo Pay. In terms of communication and media, they own pretty much WeChat of Vietnam, so they own Zalo. So Zalo is the most popular app. Pretty much every Vietnamese uses Zalo and a few others.

They also invest in startup as well. So VNG, they recently filed for their IPO to be next year. You can look at some of their financial numbers from that F-1 filing.

Jeremy Au: (10:20)

Okay. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because like you said, VNG is actually very much similar to Sea Group in the sense that they both started out with gaming as one of the earliest product lines, but also the most profitable. I think it's also quite similar to the Chinese companies like Tencent. So it's an interesting dynamic where it's not necessarily a VNG thing, but it's actually quite similar emerging markets, internet conglomerate starts off gaming. They have a good user base of the young millennials I guess back then, or folks who are willing to enter, do mobile games or the equivalent, or desktop or whatever it is.

But they're also doing low bandwidth games that actually end up, they said making money, but also they get the user information about these people who are willing to have a digital economy in terms of later on, like mobile wallets, in terms of payments, in terms of all these other, communications as well.

So I think it's quite interesting. It's a very different economic growth path for internet technology companies versus the US because you don't see Blizzard or these other gaming companies have become into there. I think it's almost out of the way around. Amazon started up shopping and now they're going to entertainment, with movies and so, so forth. So I think it's an interesting dynamic there. Now, I always wanted the experience. I think a lot of people around the world, they don't use Zalo. Can you explain what it's like to use Zalo?

Does it look, feel, exactly like WeChat or WhatsApp? How does it feel like, obviously you use all of them, right? Better WeChat, Zalo, as well as WhatsApp, but could you share a little bit about what are the major differences from your perspective?

Valerie Vu: (11:45)

Yeah. To be honest, I don't use WeChat but I saw some of the interface, UI, UX, and I think Zalo has more similarities with WeChat rather than WhatsApp. So WhatsApp is super simple. You barely see any advertising. You don't see other graphics or emoji on WhatsApp. It's purely just in chat app. But Zalo is like chat app and everything else. There's more graphics. There's social feed where you can share your daily life similar to Facebook. There's also a portal where you can get connected to a financial advice platform called fin Zi. They send daily news. It's one of the VNG acquisitions as well.

They bought a news company to integrate with Zalo so it's much more complicated and there are more things going on in Zalo. I think it's more similar to WeChat. And if you don't turn off the discovery part, all the stranger can also find you and make friends, requests to you as well. So I was pretty overwhelmed by that in the beginning when I first used Zalo, so I had to shut it down. But yeah, it's more similar to weChat rather than WhatsApp.

Jeremy Au: (12:50)

Yeah, I think what's interesting is that everybody's trying to create that super app in Southeast Asia. So there's Grab that says they're trying to do a super app, go to a super app. Obviously I think VNG actually is probably the only one I can think of that really has pulled off the super app play in Southeast Asia. Maybe I'm right or wrong there, but it feels like the messaging piece is actually a big piece of that control slash super app dynamics. What do you think about that, Valerie?

Valerie Vu: (13:13)

I think Sea Group is also pretty successful in terms of creating their own super app because they have Shopee pay. So in Vietnam, they have Shopee Pay, they acquired Foodie and then rebranded it to Shopee Eat, so you can also deliver food on Shopee on top of shopping, e-commerce and do payment. So I think Shopee or Sea Group is the second closest to a super app in Vietnam, but it is not a local company.

Jeremy Au: (13:39)

I think it's super true. And I think it's interesting because super app means that you have some sort of user and you're using them, across, monetizing them across multiple different product categories. I think you're right. You know what's interesting because Sea group is a lot, most people in Singapore, for example, where region, they look at it primarily as a commerce. E-commerce side which is Shopee and not every market, for example, has Shopee Pay or, Shopee in terms of food as well. That's not common in many markets actually but what you mentioned earlier as well is that you see that there's a lot of competitors entering and competing with the local Vietnamese companies. So you talk about ByteDance with their TikTok shop, and you also mentioned about Sea Group as well. Could you share a little bit more about those dynamics?

Valerie Vu: (14:14)

Yeah. So I think the chinese e-commerce is pretty powerful. TikTok shop, they enter Vietnam only recently but they're quickly gaining market share in climbing to the second or third largest already. And recently, you saw Temu, which is an e-commerce arm of Pinduoduo , enter Philippines, and I have no doubt if they're going to enter Vietnam next and it's pretty scary for local e-commerce from my point of view.

Jeremy Au: (14:43)

I think so. It's interesting to see that the Chinese companies are really aggressive so I think there's also not obvious to everybody, right? So if you're in Indonesia or even Singapore, I think it's not so obvious that these expansions from these Chinese companies are happening.

So I think there are also quite fierce competitors. We already saw, for example, that Indonesia launched that new law, regulating and licensing the import of goods for e-commerce platforms, which I think most people have interpreted as a way to prevent TikTok shop from really coming in aggressively into Indonesia. And of course by that stray we wrote a message saying Hey, we don't have any plans to launch this functionality in Indonesia as well. Anyway but I think it's interesting to see that. Why do you think TikTok shop is so popular in Vietnam? What makes it more appealing to a Vietnamese person?

Valerie Vu: (15:26)

So I think in terms of what makes a social app sticky to Vietnamese is more entertainment, more action happening. That's why Zalo is more popular than WhatsApp in Vietnam because Zalo has a lot of graphics, pictures, news, et cetera. TikTok is really good at capturing attention. So in three seconds, they know what I like and what I don't like, because I swipe to the next video in three seconds. So they have so much algorithm, and that also attracts the Gen Z, also some young millennials in Vietnam to create content on TikTok. And because TikTok has become a central social platform for all Gen Z, millennials in Vietnam, and those actually are the population who spend more in e-commerce. That's why it's easy. It's an easy move for TikTok to actually roll out TikTok shop because they understand what I like so that they can run the right advertising or the right sellers that target me.

Jeremy Au: (16:21)

I got to ask, have you bought anything on TikTok shop?

Valerie Vu: (16:23)

Of course.

Jeremy Au: (16:24)

Ooh, I want to know, because I have never bought anything on TikTok shop. What did you buy? Clothes? Or what do they sell from your perspective?

Valerie Vu: (16:31)

Health supplements. They sell

Jeremy Au: (16:33)

Health supplements.

Valerie Vu: (16:35)

Yeah, like vitamins. It's insane. It's like it targets exactly what I'm looking for, and at the same time, the seller or the reviewer has reviewed the right kind of product criteria that I was looking for. And at the bottom of the TikTok video, there's a link to purchase and it took me only a few seconds to actually make the purchase. It's even easier than Shopee.

Jeremy Au: (16:58)

Yeah. Shopee, you got to go and, oh, I want to buy health supplement. I type it in and you see 20 or 30 different SKUs. Then you go select the one that has good reviews, and then you go and blah, blah, versus you get a review upfront first. And the guy's saying this is amazing.

Valerie Vu: (17:14)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Au: (17:14)

Yeah. I haven't bought anything on TikTok shop yet. I've bought some stuff on Instagram. I had to admit I think I bought one of those little gadgets that look nice for your desk. you know, It's like those ornaments for your desk, and you're like, oh, it's so cute. And I just bought one of those. So yeah, I think that's kind of like a discovery-based shopping.

Valerie Vu: (17:30)

The transaction that you made on Instagram, was it directly with Instagram or you have to chat with the seller?

Jeremy Au: (17:35)

Ah, that's a hundred percent. I think you have to click out, go to their website. So, it's not embedded within the app. So for Instagram, I think the big issue of the shopping is that in order for you to succeed, you have to exit the Instagram app, which I think is a big difference from a lot of the social commerce apps, is

not you discover and you buy within the app, so you never leave the ecosystem.

Valerie Vu: (17:54)

Yeah I did not leave TikTok when I had to you know, make the purchase. TikTok shop is right within TikTok. Yeah, it's amazing.

Jeremy Au: (18:02)

Exactly. I think it's an important innovation. So I got to ask, did you buy something off after that? Because I'm like, you scroll, then you buy vitamins and you scroll. I don't think you remember what the next video you saw was, right?

Valerie Vu: (18:12)

It's just like some random stuff.

Jeremy Au: (18:16)

do you and I trust each other enough to tell each other what is on our TikTok feeds? What does the algorithm think we do? I'll tell you what mine is. On my TikTok feed, every time I go on, it's all about dads and daughters because they figured out that you know, there's all this wholesome stuff about dads dancing with their daughters, when they're young or the daughter is now very old and the dad is dying kind of videos. And then there's a lot of like marriage and divorce stuff as well. So it is like marriage advice, this is your advice and then advice from a divorce, lawyer, marriage. So there's a lot of that.

I have a lot of jokes about Chinese jokes, so it was like, it's the example would be like, People making puns in Chinese bringing Chinese and English. So you would be like an American woman who's Caucasian, who's very good at Chinese or like this, Chinese person who's very bad at Chinese. Those are the two types of the same thing. I think some tech stuff. I subscribe explicitly to the All In podcast, and so I think there's a few clips about VCs talking to folks. Obviously there's some VC memes and startup memes, jokes that happen on TikTok as well. Oh, I guess the BRAVE Southeast Asia Tech podcast also has a TikTok, so feel free to check it out. We have about over 25,000 followers on TikTok. So, we are also on TikTok as well.

Valerie Vu: (19:26)

Oh yeah.

Jeremy Au: (19:27)

How about you, Valerie? What's on your TikTok feed? Whatever you want share.

Valerie Vu: (19:30)

My podcast also has a TikTok, but if I was TikTok, I will try to sell you dad and baby items.

Jeremy Au: (19:37)

Yeah. Yeah. So I would have bought so much stuff for the kid. It's ridiculous, because it feels good, right? You're like, I'm not buying this for myself. I'm buying this for my kid to have a better future. And then suddenly, you have all kinds of stuff. You have a trampoline, you have all these other things, all this baby gear. How about you, Valerie? What's on your TikTok feed? I guess, what do you see on TikTok? Vitamins, supplements, clearly health.

Valerie Vu: (19:57)

So yeah, health, I go for recipe like healthy food recipes. That's why, those granola bars TikTok shop, keep going to my feed. A lot of things like astrology fashion, beauty, some of the VC as well, but less of VC, because for me, TikTok is entertainment and my podcast also has a TikTok.

Jeremy Au: (20:18)

Yeah. That's important. I think it's interesting because I think TikTok is one of those really interesting companies, but also products that I think the review and the discovery is upfront. And then you can monetize off it. And I think we see that a little bit now with the recent Amazon, right? So Amazon, what they're trying to do now is they're trying to create these Amazon Prime video, and so they have all these TV series where you can watch a spy show and so, so forth. And they've recently been very inspired by TikTok. So now if you pause on some of the TV shows, you actually will see all the products that they have.

So the heroine is wearing this very nice dress that's for sale. The jewelry is for sale. The watch is for sale. So you can actually pause and you can see, you can buy what you're watching on the tV screen. And I was like, I don't know how it works for long term but I think it's a great way to hook it up into the rest of the Amazon ecosystem. So, I can't wait for Disney to do that as well. They'll be like, oh, here's your Storm Trooper stuff. You can buy a storm Trooper armor for $1,000 or all these other stuff. I think there's a lot of embedded commerce that will happen in all this video platforms.

Valerie Vu: (21:13)

Yeah, I think that would be a solid strategy.

Jeremy Au: (21:16)

Yeah, Valerie, I was just curious as you know, when you kind of look at Vietnam in the, coming months, what are the important things that you think will happen over the next month? I think one obviously is the how the IPO performs for VNG is going to be a big one. What else do you think is important to keep in mind the next one month?

Valerie Vu: (21:30)

Yeah, I think Besides s tho those IPOs, I think we would be watching Vietnam economy grow. If you have been following, our export has been suffering because we are an export surplus economy. But our biggest buyers, the US and Europe, they have been experiencing inventory surplus. So the number of orders for Made-in-Vietnam products has been this year. So I think we only have one quarter and one month left to see if we can really meet the growth target of 6.5% this year. A lot of economists were concerned that we will not be able to but with the Quarter 4 is the peak season of any e-commerce, any e-commerce retail, because it's Christmas holiday season in the US and Europe. Fingers crossed and hoping that the bottom of the export kind of, decrease and we will recover from here in Q4. So that's what I'm watching out for the most for the next one month, or at least like the next Quarter 4.

Jeremy Au: (22:29)

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I think that's interesting because one thing I do think about now that we discussed this is that I think the IPO performance of these two companies would be quite important. I think they've already been important in the sense that historically, like you said, there were no prior exits from the Vietnamese ecosystem. So you say one year ago, I think a lot of people were like, Hey, is there any company, any exits? Because if there're no exits, then there's no point having late stage capital . And then, without late stage capital, it's hard to have growth stage. And without growth stage, you can't have early stage capital right in play.

So I think it's been interesting now that finally I think we have two IPOs, effectively. I think the gates have opened up a little bit more for the belief from the wider world that Vietnam can launch IPOs. Now, of course, I think how the performance of those IPOs are is pretty important. I think for example, Singapore's ecosystem was very excited about the Grab IPO. But then, when we heard that stock market kind of like underperform after the SPAC, then unfortunately, I think a lot of people were like bearish, right? It's oh, Singapore's ecosystem is not so good because of this thing so, so, so forth.

But I think now, the market has matured. So now it's a little bit more mature. It's Hey, Grab has a certain enterprise value that's very valuable, independent of his prior valuation targets. And then similarly for Sea group, it's continued to been able to be a professional outfit, right? So I think those are important components. Also, I think there was that Vietnamese regulation that said that, companies shouldn't list on the US stock exchange.

Valerie Vu: (23:48)

I mean, ideally if they're profitable, they can be listed in IPO in, in Vietnam stock exchange. But, lots of tech companies are still not profitable yet. So for example, some of the names that are lining up more or ticky would be really challenging for them to be listed in local stock exchange.

So until we remove that requirement, tech IPO in Vietnam will still be hard and that's why VNG have to go for us or VinFast has to go for us because they're still fast growing company and they're still at the loss. Yeah.

Jeremy Au: (24:22)

Yeah. I guess when you think about the other companies in terms of Tiki, Momo, so, so forth, what do you think is important for them? Because they're not yet at IPO stage yet, right? I think their revenues are not large enough. The profitability is not there yet. I think earlier, you said there were like five companies that had aspirations to be a unicorn.

Could you list them all out? So two of them is VinFast and VNG. What the other couple, I think companies that people should be aware of.

Valerie Vu: (24:48)

So it's not about five five companies that aspire to be unicorn, These are five companies that want to be listed in the US.

Jeremy Au: (24:54)

Ah, interesting.

Valerie Vu: (24:55)

I think they themselves are already unicorn or soonicorn. It's about the ambition to be listed in the US and I just want to correct that Momo and Tiki, they are not small at all. Momo has, in terms of consumer payment and consumer deposit for a digital bank startup, they have the largest, most attractive, most impressive number for all among all the fintech players in Vietnam already. Yeah. So it is not like they are not, it's just that they're still operating in Laos and that alone that does not it doesn't meet the requirement to be listed in Vietnam.

Oh, so the five companies that you asked. I would name some names. The CrownX which is a new retail group subsidiary of Masan which is the largest retail conglomerate in Vietnam. I think they, they have ambition to be listed in the US. CrownX was invested by Alibaba. And then some of the following names obviously Momo, Tiki, and also Golden Gate Group, a restaurant, F&B group in Vietnam. Potentially, I think the largest, already the most dominating F&B group in Vietnam already. So those are some of the few names that a lot of ecosystem people in the ecosystem are watching whether, they will be ready to be listed in Vietnam or will be filing in the US.

Jeremy Au: (26:13)

Yeah. On that note, I'd love to wrap things up and summarize the three big takeaways I got from this. First of all, thanks so much for sharing a little bit about why you set up a VC fund for Vietnam, because you care about the funding gap that's there for early stage companies. So really inspiring to hear that story.

Secondly, thank you so much for sharing about VNG, as well as VinFast IPOs, but also talking about what they're special about, especially in terms of the super app for VNG and some of the differences in terms of Zalo as well as WeChat, as well as the shopping experience.

And lastly, thanks so, so much for sharing about your own personal experience as a user and, you know, who's using these products in Zalo, in terms of TikTok Shop. Now I know that I have to buy for your birthday vitamin supplements gift card. Maybe next time. But you know, I guess we got to share a little bit more about how people living in different parts of Southeast Asia can vary different platforms and different user experiences. On that note, thank you so much and see you next month, Valerie.

Valerie Vu: (27:05)

Yeah. Thanks Jeremy, and see you everyone at BRAVE next month!