Viktor Kyosev: Navigating Startup Failure, Greenhouse Founder to Docquity Chief of Staff & Southeast Asia Startups Integrity Risks - E535

Viktor Kyosev, Chief of Staff at Docquity, and Jeremy Au discussed:

1. Navigating Startup Failure: Viktor shared his experience as a founding team member of Greenhouse, a premium coworking space startup in Indonesia. Faced with declining performance during the COVID-19 pandemic, the company went through layoffs and failed pivots before he made the difficult decision to shut down operations. He reached consensus with co-founders and investors, stressing the need for clear decisions and good communication with all involved. The closure process, prolonged by Southeast Asia’s regulatory hurdles requiring up to five years for dormancy and proper shutdown, highlighted the challenges of operating in emerging markets.

2. Greenhouse Founder to Docquity Chief of Staff: Following Greenhouse’s closure, Viktor joined Docquity as Chief of Staff, and leveraged relationships built while Docquity was Greenhouse’s largest customer. He shaped his role based on his entrepreneurial background, given the trust between both sides. The transition from founder to employee required him to adapt to organizational dynamics, build internal credibility, and lead without formal authority. He highlighted the challenge of managing his ego and shifting focus from individual decision-making to team-oriented contributions by aligning with larger organizational goals and applying lessons from his startup experience.

3. Southeast Asia Startups Integrity Risks: They examined how competitive pressures and Southeast Asia’s complex regulatory environment create opportunities for ethical compromises. Viktor discussed how unchecked ambition and overconfidence can lead founders to bend rules, especially when faced with financial constraints or performance targets. He also emphasized that long-term success depends on strong governance, trust with investors, and adherence to ethical boundaries. His experiences underscored the importance of balancing innovation with integrity to maintain sustainable growth.

They also discussed the role of external-facing positions in building strategic networks, the impact of serendipity in career transitions, and how understanding personal insecurities can help leaders navigate challenges and maintain resilience.

(01:00) Jeremy Au: Hey, Victor. Really excited to have you in the show. I think it's been about one year since I last invited you for this thing. And so I'm really excited to have you to share your story because I think you are such a human writer and such a human person that I really enjoyed our conversations. And I think you have some really important experiences for the founders of Southeast Asia here.

(01:20) Before we get further, could you share a little bit about yourself?

(01:23) Viktor Kyosev: Sure. First of all, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to share a bit about what I've been through so far. So for people who don't know me, I originally I'm from Bulgaria, born and raised there. When I was 18, I moved to Denmark for studies.

(01:37) So I spent about seven years in Denmark. And at that time it was pretty difficult decision because, you know, my family was like, They said that they can't really support me financially, so I need to figure out on my own. And it took a while for me to really figure out the way to become independent.

(01:52) But I think it was most probably the best decision in my life because it really pushed me out there. I met people from all over the world and it, I don't know, it helped me (02:00) to meet so many interesting people and, and kind of discover myself in the process. So I spent seven years in Denmark. I got my bachelor's, my master's there.

(02:06) After Denmark, actually during my studies, I did an internship in Taiwan and at that time, I think, you know, all my classmates were going in the West, everyone's going to Western Europe, they were going to the U. S. and I was the only one that went East. And everyone was asking me, like, why would you, why would you do that?

(02:22) Like, why would you go to, to Asia, right? Asia wasn't obviously hot at the time, at least, you know, that was in my circle. But I always felt like it would be interesting. And once I kind of arrived in Taiwan and I spent seven months, if I'm not mistaken, I kind of fell in love with the region and I saw a lot of opportunities.

(02:40) So I was like, once I'm done with my studies, I'll find a way to come back. So then once I was done with Taiwan, went back to Denmark, continued my master's, completed it. And at that time I kind of started looking for ways to return to Asia. And at the time I became part of an accelerator program in Malaysia.

(02:58) I'm not sure if they're still (03:00) around. It's called magic.

(03:01) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(03:01) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. So kind of magic relocated me to Malaysia. I spent a few months with them. I think we were part of their second cohort. So we built like a lifestyle startup. Like sweet escape before sweet escape. So we kind of traveled a lot across the region and on boarded to a marketplace.

(03:15) A lot of photographers, and that's really gave me the chance to explore the region. And I really enjoyed it. after the program was completed, we stayed in Indonesia because Indonesia was our largest market. And I ended up living in Indonesia for four years. I met my wife. And congratulations, you just got married.

(03:32) Thank you so much. Yeah, like, so that's very new. Just maybe seven, eight months ago. I'm actually about to fly to Indonesia for Chinese New Year. So that's like a lot of new experiences and learning so much about the culture. It never ends. So thank you for that. But yeah, like spend four years in Indonesia.

(03:47) At some point while I was there, I got approached to join a startup. And that startup was called Greenhouse. I was the first employee actually. So I was one of the founding. Members. My wife (04:00) was the designer because we started the coworking space. It was a kind of premium coworking space.

(04:04) Like we got the penthouse location in the city center and she designed the place and that's how we met. Yeah. So for the longest time, you know, we had a kind of a dynamic between us, but you know, I tried to steer away from it because I didn't want to, you know, mess up with the business. But you know, like we kind of build a business together.

(04:21) We work very closely. And at some point I started getting promoted up to the point that I became a co founder. Right. So I was with Greenhouse for about four years. We, yeah, unfortunately, you know, around COVID it got really hard to run a real estate business. So that was really hard for us and we needed to figure out the pivot and we tried a few things, but unfortunately at the end we needed to.

(04:43) I think at that time I met you for the first time and we had a conversation and I remember that you were very empathetic more than most other people I met. So I was kind of thinking what to do next and afterwards I relocated to Singapore and I got a job at Docquity where I currently work as a chief of staff.(05:00)

(05:00) So that's kind of a, in a nutshell, what I've been doing in the past decade.

(05:03) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think what we wanted to focus on is this question that a lot of founders have asked, right, which is what's it like to, you know, run a business. I think that's one, but when it's not going well, how to make a set of decisions about whether to keep going, persevere, pivot or wind down.

(05:20) And then obviously I think there's a, not just a professional side, but also a personal side of the story. So I think zooming in here, I think the part of it was that. You know, when you started out as an early employee, the first employee, and then, you know, you got promoted a co founder and when I met you, you know, you were busy fundraising, pushing hard.

(05:36) I think the key realization that we had within that meeting was that, you know, it wasn't looking good. Right. At that time I was the

(05:44) Viktor Kyosev: last person.

(05:44) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And then you were the last person, right, in the business. And so I always remember that for me, it was like, here's this guy who's very good at explaining the business very clearly.

(05:54) And then obviously the business is not really great, right? And so I think we had a conversation about, what the right path for the (06:00) business was going to be. So what was that thinking at that point of time? Because obviously when you join a company that you thought was going to do well. And obviously COVID happened.

(06:06) So how does that journey happen from your perspective?

(06:09) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah, I think it's, I mean, you know, all startups are very unique and very challenging at all times, even when things are going well, it's still highly stressful environment. And when you have to let go of your team, like, you know, in our case, because the pandemic is something that never happened before.

(06:25) Right. Or at least not in my lifetime. I didn't experience one. In that sense. So when that happened and we started noticing the impact of the business, we needed to make some really quick decisions and then you need to, you know, like, because again, it wasn't clear. Can you meet people? Can you be in the same room?

(06:39) Can you not? But we're in the real estate business, And I need to let go of a lot of people like, cause we had the restaurant as part of the place as well. So I think we have maybe 40, 50 people working for us and I needed to let go of so many people. Online, even though we run an offline business and that was hard in many levels,

(06:57) And then trying to figure out what to do next and how to do (07:00) it. You know, no one really knows what's the right solution. There is no one framework that works like people can give you advice, like do try this or try that, or this makes sense. But at the end of the day, only you really understand the complexity of your situation and it's unclear what you have to do.

(07:15) So it was highly stressful. It was hard to find people who could really understand, empathize and advise. the way I need it right at that time. So it wasn't clear what direction to take. And again, like I'm in a, I'm a foreigner, like I don't really have my support system here. I'm still like building my network.

(07:35) So that was very tricky. We tried a bunch of different things and the first time you try something new, like a pivot, you get very excited. Okay, this thing definitely going to work. Like, cause you do all your research and homework and talk to smart people that like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

(07:50) And you go into it and nothing happens like, okay, that's fine. Let's try another thing. And then you try another thing. And then again and again. And with each iteration, your enthusiasm kind of (08:00) gets lower, right? Because it's very hard to keep that. Excitement. And not just for you, but also for the remaining team.

(08:06) And that for me was the hardest because you're forced to figure it out. And that means you've got to do a lot of different things, but your team starts losing faith in your ability to figure it out. Right. And that's very hard. I think that for me was the hardest. How do you keep on creating excitement where it's clear that things are not working that well?

(08:25) So yeah, that for me was very, very difficult. And of course, you know, the last bits of the journey when I was the last man in the company and I was like, okay, can I really, you know, raise money? Yes, I could maybe on some really, really bad terms. Cause I just didn't have any leverage. Right. I was like, would that make sense?

(08:41) No, wouldn't make sense for me. Wouldn't make sense also for our investors because it just makes the business very difficult to continue. So I was like, what do I do? Can I grow the business a little bit? Yes. but we raised, you know, kind of venture capital. It's hard to that growth rate too. Justify how much we have raised.

(08:57) So I was like, at some point I was just so burned out that I was (09:00) like, I have to make a difficult decision. Right. And at that time you're like, okay, well it is what it is now. What's next? I don't know if that answers the question. Yeah.

(09:07) Jeremy Au: And I think it's interesting because zooming in a little bit further is like, you know, every founder goes through tough times, right?

(09:13) I mean, it's like a daily experience, right? But I think the interesting part is like, you know, you're supposed to persevere. Right? I mean, every founder story is about a person who pushes right? And then if not, there's always the miraculous pivot that happens. But then you make a decision somewhere along the way to say like, okay, I'm gonna wind this down.

(09:32) And so how do you make that decision? Like, is that decision made for you? Is there something you had to come to terms with? How's that?

(09:40) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. I mean, it's very hard. Right. And I think we hear the success story. So there is a lot of survivorship bias there. We don't hear about most of the stories that I guess were the more realistic scenarios.

(09:50) It's very difficult to make the decision because you absolutely want to make sure that you have given your 200 percent not just for the sake of your investors, of course, for them, because they believed in you and they (10:00) bet on you. But also for your own sake, you know, like you want to make sure that you have tried everything you can and you're absolutely certain that you don't have other options.

(10:08) So it takes a while to reach that conclusion because you know. How, like you have a lot of reserves of energy that you don't like when you have a regular job, you don't really tap on, but once you run a company, you understand that actually you can do so much more. So you keep on trying. Can you keep on experimenting?

(10:22) And it's not obvious that you need to make that decision. At least it wasn't obvious to us. So we had a lot of conversations between the rest of the founders and the investors, you know, like talking about it and this is what we tried and that's what we tried. And this is what we learned. This is where we're going.

(10:34) And at some point it became like a consensus. amongst all of us. It makes sense for you to do this. And at that point in time, you know, I also felt like, okay, maybe this makes sense because I wouldn't think it's fair for me alone to drive that decision. If the rest of the people feel there is still, you know, something you can do, but when, you know, most of the people agree, okay, it's time we can done everything we can.

(10:56) And we just simply cannot Continue. I (11:00) think at that time you're like, okay, fine. It is what it is.

(11:02) Jeremy Au: Isn't it scary to do so? Because, you know, otherwise you're seen as a quitter. Right. Especially, I mean, even the first person to say it or second person to say it. Yeah. I mean, you know,

(11:11) Viktor Kyosev: you know what one thing I realized is that your business in your mind takes so much space and you think is the biggest and most important thing in the world.

(11:21) And the moment it's gone, No one cares. It's like people forget so fast, even some relatives that are supposed to have been next to you throughout this time. They're just like, move on.

(11:31) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(11:32) Viktor Kyosev: And I was like, wow, that, you know, in my mind was like. Part of my identity is going to shatter and like, I'm not good enough.

(11:39) And then you go talk to some people and most people forgot. They just moved on, you know, and it's really interesting to see that. And actually you get surprised when people remember.

(11:50) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(11:50) Viktor Kyosev: Every once in a while, someone's going to be like, Hey man, how is that business? And I'm like, Oh, you remember?

(11:54) So like it's, it's interesting that dynamic because I guess what I'm trying to say is much bigger (12:00) in your mind than what in the collective mind. Right. You know, people just have their own things to look after.

(12:05) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(12:05) Viktor Kyosev: they move on very fast.

(12:07) Jeremy Au: And that's obviously with the benefit of hindsight, because if I was to invert that, it sounds like at that point of time, it was a very,

(12:12) Viktor Kyosev: very big deal.

(12:13) Yeah. It wasn't obvious.

(12:14) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(12:15) Viktor Kyosev: It was an obvious plus, you know, so that's one side of the story. The other side of the story is of course, as you want to do something next, the way like having some kind of, you know, signals that you have been successful matter, right? Because that's how you can get something better next time, like you get a better job or you can start something bigger.

(12:33) And when you make a decision like that, you know. I mean, no one wants to hear that. Like when you're interviewing with people and you're like, well, you know, it didn't work out. It's not the kind of story they want to hear. They want to hear a success story. They want to hear a story of you've done something great.

(12:45) At the same time, you don't want to really bullshit. You want to like find the right way to communicate it. I think that was harder, you know, as I start slowly having conversations with people and you know, people really questioning you, are you really any good if that's what happened? But the majority of people (13:00) outside you pursuing next opportunities.

(13:03) Completely don't care. Just move on.

(13:05) Jeremy Au: And so zooming in is like, you made a decision that it makes sense to wind down and you got a consensus of your teammates, you know, your supporters. And so I think that's where it kind of like bifurcates into two parts, right? Which is I think the professional process of winding something down and then there's a personal process of, I don't know, grieving, coming to grips with it.

(13:22) So I'm just kind of curious, like how you see those two tracks. Yeah.

(13:26) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. The professional one, I mean, the one with a winding down of business, I think it's a quicker one to explain. Yeah. It's really painful in Southeast Asia. Yeah. Like the Singapore is like an outlier and Singapore things are pretty straightforward and you can do things fast, but in Indonesia like we had an entity there, we still do.

(13:43) It takes a while because you want to make sure that the way, you know you close it, you do it the right way so that there is no tax exposure. And, and there is a lot of gray areas. So you hire one vendor and they tell you one thing and you hire another vendor and they're doing a contradicting thing and then you keep on going through that until you figure out what's the (14:00) right approach and then you start doing it.

(14:01) Then it takes a few years because you need to maintain a state of dormancy. So that's really not fun. And at that point in time, everyone kind of lost interest. Right. And no one gets paid to do that. So that's, one side of running a company that no one talks about. Right. but you have to do what you have to do, right.

(14:15) I still deal with this and I think it's fine. And I think it's the least I can do for our. investors and the rest of the co founders,

(14:20) Jeremy Au: how this for a quick one is just like, at least by Indonesia startup, what's the expectation you think for a timeline, like one year, two years, three years. It depends

(14:29) Viktor Kyosev: on how you manage the foreign capital.

(14:31) So like if you, if let's say, cause most startups would have an entity in Singapore where they would collect their, you know capital depending on how the money are. Whether they're given as a loan or they're given in a different form. You might have a tax exposure. If you have a tax exposure you, you gotta maintain a, and again, I'm not, this is not professional advice.

(14:48) I don't mean to advise her and who knows how things can evolve since we started. Right. So maybe things are different by now. But. It's advisable to have a state of dormancy, right? To show that actually the company is not (15:00) operating, right? So that you can prove to the government that, you know, like, we're not trying to do anything shady here.

(15:04) We actually are shutting down the business. And the last thing you want is like a business that didn't work out to pay a lot of tax on, right? Because you're like, well, you know, it's not like we're trying to hide anything here. We're just really like shutting down the business. So because of that, you know, that's a bit tricky and you need to maintain a state of dormancy.

(15:19) Different people advise for different duration. But, but yeah, like I have met some smart founders that actually they knew this may happen and they manage things internally differently to prevent that long,

(15:30) Jeremy Au: right.

(15:31) Viktor Kyosev: You know, kind of a fact that, that we needed to deal with. And I also met people that had no idea and they were like, oops, now I need to be more careful.

(15:38) But yeah, like you need, you need like three to five years, I guess.

(15:40) Jeremy Au: Three to five years. Okay. Yeah. I had the word three in my head, but five does feel like a. Long time. Yeah. Oh, okay. So there's something for us to complain about the Indonesia and also to some extent, some of the other Southeast Asia, like, you know, incorporation of the dynamics, but I think that makes it more painful obviously (16:00) as a shutdown or wind down process for every founder and every VC who has a deal of that portfolio.

(16:04) So they put that one side, but let's talk about the personal side, right? Which is that you're going to make a set of decisions, right? Which is there's a grief side and then there's like a, Next chapter, get a job site, right? So how do you think about those?

(16:16) Viktor Kyosev: Unfortunately, when you're a foreigner, when you're an expert, you don't have much time to grieve because you're on a visa, right?

(16:23) And the moment you don't have a sponsor, like off you go, right? Yeah. So, and I talked to many founders here who are foreigners like me, and they're in the same situation. They're like, once, you know, they decide to move on for whatever reason, they're like, I need to make a decision quick. And because you need to make a decision quick, it's very hard to make the right decision.

(16:43) Jeremy Au: Right.

(16:43) Viktor Kyosev: Because you just pressure it. So you don't have the luxury of, okay, I'm going to take three to six months to think about what is the best job and talk to a lot of people. So in a way that's good because that forces you to do not think too much about what happened and to force on what's next.

(16:58) Right? so in that sense, you need (17:00) to have this agency and urgency to figure it out. So you start talking to people, figuring out things and, mapping what's possible, what's not possible. Right? So my process was like luckily, you know so at Greenhouse, I was in charge of sales.

(17:11) And I think one learning here is that when you have an external role in your company, you have relationships.

(17:17) Jeremy Au: Right.

(17:17) Viktor Kyosev: Right. If you have an internal role, it's very hard to go tap on these relationships. And in Asia, I guess not just in Asia, but all over the world, but in Asia in particular, relationships matter a lot.

(17:26) At least they open the door to a conversation. So because of that, you know, many of our big customers have been trying to recruit me for years before that. And I was always like, no man, I can't do that. You know, I can't run a business. But now I'm like, you know what?

(17:37) Well, the time might have come now and like, want to have that conversation. So that's really accelerates things. So now I always think that whatever I do, I need to have some external exposure so that I build that network. So I always kept like a plan B. And I was very fortunate that. Doquity was our largest customer.

(17:53) I literally remember Doquity coming to Greenhouse when it was just the founder and starting Indonesia. And I was like, okay, let me connect you with this guy and that guy. (18:00) And I did my best to help. And because of that, because I helped in the early days, we always had really good relationships. And when I told him like I'm looking for what's next for me, he's like, you know what?

(18:09) Write your JD and know when I was going to apply for that job. And that job is going to wait for you and take as much time as you need. And if you want to sign now, you sign now I want to give you some time. But I'll take care of it. Right. And for me, that was like, wow. And I was so like, that was the right kind of approach I needed at that time.

(18:24) Whereas, you know, I met some other founders where, you know, it's very important that early on you, you, you have this feeling of trust between the two parties.

(18:31) And because I said, I felt there's so much sense of trust and you know, they let me write my own JD, which made me think, okay, what do I actually want to do? Right. And at that time, you know, I, I wrote my JD as a chief of staff. And if you like, I can talk more about that as well.

(18:43) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And you know, we also had that meeting at that time.

(18:47) So, you know, bravely organized like an annual kind of like gathering for founders who are, you know, closing that chapter of their lives and moving to new chapters. So we call it the Phoenix program just for people to chat for a few hours virtually. And I think part of that I (19:00) always remember was like, we had some of these conversations.

(19:02) I think there was one time when you were listening and then after that you came back as a panelist sharing too. To other founders are going through the piece. And, you know, I think a part that I kind of personally remember is at least from the group was like, you know, there's pain and there's some level of like getting out of the pain.

(19:22) And I had the biggest question. I always came all the time. I was like, how do I accelerate this? How do I make this faster? How do I skip steps to get through from, I don't know, the pain. Yeah. So I think the most important thing is to, to, I don't know, the new job and success rebuff. Right. I'm just kind of curious about your thoughts about that.

(19:38) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. I think again I can speak about myself, different people who have different personalities and different things, drive them in life. In my case, it's very important that I contribute more than I consume,

(19:48) Jeremy Au: right?

(19:49) Viktor Kyosev: Right. That like I have come to realize that as long as I contribute and, and it's, appreciated, meaning it actually helps people.

(19:56) I actually, I'm at a good place and it's very (20:00) important quickly to find something that at least in my case, it's worth working very hard for the moment I find something, okay, this is an interesting. vision or direction that this product or a new company is taking. And I can play a very important role and I start taking on more and more responsibility.

(20:17) For me, that really heals me very fast, right? Cause now my mind is completely focused on how do I get that job done at this time? So discovering that's a bit tricky because as you, you know, grow older and you become a little bit more wise, hopefully You narrow down the things that excite you and you have good justification of why something is interesting or something is not, at least in your own life.

(20:40) But you know, once you discover that and you just jump, dive into it, it really helps, right? Because, you know, now I'm solving this big problem and it matters and I play an important role and I feel appreciated. For me, that's like, it really accelerates. Healing that wound.

(20:54) Jeremy Au: Mm. Right. And I think part of that, you know, dynamic is like, you know, a lot of founders have to make (21:00) decisions like, do I be a founder again?

(21:01) Yeah. I wish was very common. I, I think remember of groups. Yeah. Versus obviously being a vc, there's R one. Yes. Or I think becoming an employee. So how do you think about it and how will you think about that, I guess?

(21:12) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. that's a very good one. I think, you know, obviously like if you enjoy the founder journey, no matter what happened, you would eventually want to be a founder again.

(21:19) I think at least that's what I see in myself and I see in other people. The question is, do you want to do it immediately? Like you just suffered so much and you work yourself to the bone for months being underpaid. In a high stressful environment, do you want to go and start all over again? There's something similar that is very uncertain because you know, the beginning of a startup is where it's like the hardest I feel because the lack of like, there's so much uncertainty and you know, you don't have product market fit and are you working on the right problem and all that.

(21:49) So because of that, you know, do you want to go through this immediately or do you want to take some time to lick your wounds? And then come back when you're like completely recovered at a better mental place, (22:00) also financially a little bit safer. And as you get older, you start getting a wife and kids and you know, like you've got to be more careful how you make these decisions.

(22:06) So I see a lot of people jumping again to start a startup, but very often these people are a little bit younger, right in their twenties and you know, like they're like, you know, what's the worst thing that can happen? And I think in your twenties, it kind of makes sense. Like do whatever you want to do.

(22:20) But as you get older, you gotta be a bit more careful. So at the time when I was making the decision, I was already dating seriously my current wife, right? So now I was like, okay, now I have someone I need to look after. Like I can't be just making decisions that are selfish, one sided decisions. Now I need to make decisions that benefit both of us.

(22:35) So that was one thing that played a lot of role. And second thing is like if I'm going to work for someone, do I respect that person? Can I learn from that person? And can I grow in that? Like, can I reach, you know, like similar level to what I had before with regards to learning and accomplishment or.

(22:50) In any capacity would I feel good? Right. And if the answer is yes, like you have room to grow and it's an interesting business and it grows fast. Why not? Right. Yeah. The VC (23:00) route, I think a lot of founders think they can be great. This is, I think you're way better position than me to answer this because you've done it.

(23:07) But my thinking is that it's a lot harder than it looks. Like yes, the job scope is kind of no brainer. You really understand what's the job But to be really effective, I think it takes certain traits that not everyone has Yeah. Like I have come to realize that I'm way too empathetic with founders to make some hard investment decisions that, you know, sometimes like I would maybe support too much a founder that I like over a founder that maybe I don't like that much, but he's running a more successful business.

(23:34) And I, because of that, I don't think that I'm the best person to be an investor because at the end of the day is an investor to make money. So because of that, I always felt like. I dunno if that's the right path for me. I think it would be interesting and I would learn a lot of things on the other side but is it like, do I move directionally in the right direction?

(23:50) or, or is it a detour? Right. So because of that, I kind of decided to follow the dog equity job because again, they gave me the freedom to write my own and I literally (24:00) wrote the JD for entrepreneurial resonance. Which is like, I'm a founder inside the company. Right. So because of that I was like high upside.

(24:07) Like I have resources. I can do a lot of things. I can do them at a much bigger scale. The company is much later. At that time we were preparing for our CRC. So I was like, it would be very interesting for me to learn that because I learned a lot about from zero to one, but how do I know from one to hundred, right?

(24:22) What to do. Yeah. So that, that was kind of my process. I know it's not a very clear answer how to make that decision. But I don't think there is one formula that you can follow.

(24:30) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And pause here for a moment. Everything you're saying is great. I think you're looking more at the camera or the screen than me, and you know, I think you're getting, you know, like, you know, I don't know.

(24:42) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah.

(24:42) Jeremy Au: Looking at yourself in the mirror, just talk to me. Yeah. Sure. Okay. All right. We'll start record. We resume. Anything else you want to talk about? Yeah, at this point, this break, I think I'll talk about, just talk about, I'll just talk about some of that stuff. Employee, it was position. Yes. A little bit about dark side, (25:00) temptation, fraud, you know, loss of identity as a founder.

(25:02) And then we'll talk about the transition from there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 3, 2, 1. I agree with you about the VC and founder role, right? I mean, it's kind of like soccer, right? You know, it's like the soccer player and a team coach, they're playing the same sport.

(25:15) So a soccer player is like, I can be the coach, right? And maybe the coach is like, I can be a soccer player.

(25:20) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah,

(25:20) Jeremy Au: yeah. It's the same sport, the same rules. But, you know, your skill set is quite dramatically different and your view and incentives are totally different as well. So I agree with you about that having gone through the transition from a founder to VC and now back to, you know, a startup executive.

(25:36) So what's interesting, you know, and I think you hinted at that was kind of like the change in identity of a founder, right? Which I think is a very painful, I don't know, loss, I guess. I mean, as a founder, you're calling the shots. People are listening to you and then you become an employee. So I'm just kind of curious how you think about that.

(25:54) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah, I think you, that's the first thing you learn that you need to manage your ego. And you can't, like when you're (26:00) the founder, you have this incentive to move things fast, but now you join a new organization and in that new organization, there is a certain dynamic and there are certain things you don't know.

(26:07) There's a lot of context that you're missing. So sometimes if you push too hard in the wrong. Part of the organization, it may backfire, right? So you need some time to actually learn what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. And also to, to build your own reputation. And, you know, because I had a chief of staff role, first of all, no one knows what chief of staff is like.

(26:24) People are like, everyone thinks that I handle HR,

(26:27) Right. And I keep every week I get someone on LinkedIn would reach out selling me some software for HR. Yeah. So most people don't know. And that externally and internally and sometimes, but there's a chief of staff essentially what you do. You're the right hand of the founder, right?

(26:39) And because you're the right hand of the founder, the founder is going to be like, you know what? Go in this market and fix X. And you go there and people are like, who are you? Right. Like why, why are you here telling us what to do? And, and because of that, you know, you've got to, you have authority in a way but people don't recognize it.

(26:55) Jeremy Au: Right.

(26:56) Viktor Kyosev: So you've got to like lead without authority. And that means people need to like you and (27:00) trust you before they start listening to you. So it's a very tricky role. In a way that, that's what I learned. And this balance between, you know, you got to really prove yourself because you work next to the founders.

(27:09) The founders can really high expectations of you to achieve things that. For whatever reason, they struggle to achieve, and that's why they need you, right, for a long time. At the same time, internally, you face a lot of resistance from everyone. Everyone's like, I don't wanna work with you, I don't wanna listen to you.

(27:23) Like, who are you? Like, I never met you. And they would openly resist you at times. So that takes a while and finding that balance between, okay, how to position, how to build my reputation inside the organization. How to manage my ego so that I know when I need to give up on things and when I have to push very high that's a very tricky thing, you know, and up until today, I don't think I have a very clear playbook of how to do it and it's a lot based on intuition, but you learn that you learn that over time.

(27:49) So that, that was very, very interesting in the beginning. I think now I'm at a good place where. I am recognized across the organization, like people understand my role better and they listen to me, but not because of my role, (28:00) but because of the reputation that I built.

(28:01) Jeremy Au: Right. And I think we're kind of talking a little bit about that transition, right?

(28:05) Which is the founder identity towards an employee to an executive or, you know, teammate You know, what other changes did you have to let go, I guess, from being a founder versus what was skills that you needed to build?

(28:17) Viktor Kyosev: You know, how to say, you have a lot of new context that you need to learn in the new organization that is very different than the context that you used to have. Right. Maybe the organization is bigger, maybe it's in a different industry. So Yeah. Cool. So there is a lot of knowledge that you might have that might not be applicable anymore.

(28:33) And there is a lot of things that you need to build from zero to one, like you need to understand the industry. So for example, you know, one thing I did, I really tried to find the smartest people in healthcare and to get like a crash course on like the basics, the foundations, and I think it's really useful for people who are like, oh, I want to know But I also think that's really important is that there's a lot of context that was built in one industry that really didn't have the foundations.

(28:51) And without a foundation, it's very hard to have a conversation because people keep on throwing into like all kinds of abbreviations and terminology. And even though the conversation might be relatively simple, but (29:00) because of that, you know, there is a barrier for you to understand what's going on and you want to remove that barrier.

(29:04) So there's a lot of context that they built in one industry that suddenly was almost like, like it didn't bring almost any value. At the same time, there were a lot of things that At greenhouse didn't work out and they were massively successful, the very same process, the very same idea, the very same concept.

(29:19) And it really taught me something that, you know, sometimes it's not that you're necessarily failing. But you're failing the context, like what you're trying to do at that particular time with that particular team in this company, maybe not the right thing, but the very same thing in another company will be very successful.

(29:33) Right. So a lot of this like kind of lessons that, you know, some things I needed to like completely leave behind and some things, you know, that at first glance didn't work out now worked out very well in the new organization. Right. So a lot of learnings in between all that. And how do you like kind of figure out?

(29:47) What is valuable? What is not? And how do you adapt?

(29:49) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And what's interesting is that, you know, during this process, you've also started writing as well, which is something I noticed. I mean, you know, good, obviously never been a writer. And then after that, during (30:00) this transition, I think you also started writing.

(30:01) Could you share a little bit more about why?

(30:03) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. I always felt like, so first of all, when you write things, I think you, the moment you try to write something, you realize how little you know about the topic. I think that's number one because in your mind, you're like, Oh my God, like, I understand this issue so well.

(30:16) And then you try to write it down and you're like. It just so hard to explain it in a way that everyone would understand. And that's number one, right? You know, like writing helps you to clarify your thinking. Do you truly understand something or not? And very often I realize I don't understand a lot of things or my understanding is not sufficient enough, so I need to go deeper.

(30:34) So that was one. Another one was like, I always felt like, you know because of my role and because of the life that I chose to have, like being a founder, you know, traveling a lot, there is a lot of things I learned and I feel good when I share that, whether people recognize it or not you know, like I think there is a lot of, I get a lot of value when I push something out and even if it doesn't get a lot of traction, but I feel like I managed to phrase it the way I want it, it feels (31:00) great for me.

(31:00) Like I was like, okay, it's almost like you release some storage in your brain so that you can now focus on something else. You know, like you managed to like package it, you pushed it out and now you have more space in your mind for something else. Right? So like, I kind of always had intuition that that's the case with writing.

(31:16) And then I started writing and I realized it's way harder than I thought. But that intuition kind of dropped me there. So it's not like I had a conversation or something like that, but I always felt like sooner or later I need to write. And then as you start writing, even in the very beginning, you start noticing things like.

(31:33) All kinds of serendipitous opportunities, like, I mean, for example, maybe so many people in Singapore recognize me at events, even though I never met them. And whether they, think of me as someone who is great or not, they recognize me and they come and they want to have a conversation.

(31:47) You know, that opens a lot of serendipitous opportunities. So also, you know, experiencing that early on and getting a lot of value out of this, I felt like I should just continue.

(31:56) Jeremy Au: I'm kind of curious, like. What do you like writing about (32:00) versus what do you notice people want you Yeah. Or the algorithm likes you to write about.

(32:04) I'm just kind of curious. It's the difference.

(32:06) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah. I think the things I like to write about are like hard earned lessons. like when, you know, let's say that you manage people for 10 years and you have a performance review with someone. And at the end of this performance review, you have this insight, something clicks, but not only because of that performance review or that conversation, but because now there is a lot of dots that connected in your entire career.

(32:27) And it's almost like a puzzle got built and you're like, boom, there is an insight there, right? And this kind of hard earned insights that come through your experience. I love writing about and I'm also the opinion if it's interesting to me. Someone else would find it interesting as well.

(32:40) Right. So I want to throw that, but then what people like very often is very different. Like, you know, very early, because as a founder, you kind of, you're always thinking like, how do you find product market fit? And the same thing with your content, content market fit or whatever you call it. And very early on, you start making experiments and you start noticing what works and what doesn't work.

(32:58) And the things that work and people like are (33:00) very shallow, right? and things that I don't enjoy writing. And at some point you kind of crack the algorithm. And if I continue writing this kind of content, I would likely do well, but do I want to write this kind of content? No. I would rather have fewer people that follow me, but you know, they resonate with me better rather than, you know, I appeal to many people, but my brand is very weird.

(33:19) Like, you know, like the personality that I'm building online is not who am I, am I right? So you realize that what you want versus what the algorithm wants is very different. Like, especially on LinkedIn, which LinkedIn is the biggest platform in this part of the world. A lot of like, I dunno, like cringe things that, you know, like people will try and you see that they're written for the sake of getting engagement and they work, but I'm like, I just don't want, you know, so I experimented with that and I stopped.

(33:45) And right now I'm in a place where. I would rather get, I think of it as a bad signal, like you send a bad signal in the sky and there's a very few people that see it and that's okay, but the people that see it and that, you know, want to respond to it are the right kind of people and this is the kind of people I want to be with my relationship because I know that I'm (34:00) very like minded with them.

(34:01) Jeremy Au: Hmm. Very interesting. I'm kind of curious. what do you think the algorithm wants from you from what you've noticed?

(34:06) Viktor Kyosev: Yeah, I think the algorithm wants things that are more The vast majority of people would relate to like you want something that is very like if you become, if you, if you're too technical in your explanation, if I use language that only founders would use or only specific founders that have raised money, which is again, now you narrow the population very much, right to 0.

(34:24) 1 percent of population. Now these guys will get it. But the majority of people wouldn't get it

(34:29) Jeremy Au: right

(34:30) Viktor Kyosev: now. So the way these platforms are often designed is that they want things that everyone gets

(34:34) Jeremy Au: right,

(34:35) Viktor Kyosev: right. and they're simple enough. But the problem with that is that you kind of do a bit of what everyone else does.

(34:40) Jeremy Au: Right.

(34:40) Viktor Kyosev: And do you want more of that? Like, you know, for example things like, like what the general population would agree on is how employers are evil and how, you know, they want to, you know, pay you less. And you know, like when you write something like that, I can guarantee you like it immediately gets a lot of traction because there's a lot of people that have had a bad experience in their life once or twice or maybe consistently (35:00) and they relate to it and they jump on it.

(35:01) But that's not what I want to write about because maybe there is a component of truth to it. I'm not saying it's not, but that's. Not the kind of person I want to build,

(35:10) Jeremy Au: right? Gotcha. So that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, I'm just kind of curious because, you know, having been a founder, it's going through the wind down process.

(35:18) You've just sort of seen that as an executive. And now, so there's a writer about Southeast Asia tech. I'm just kind of curious, like, you know, we've seen like quite a bit of fraud in the Southeast Asia ecosystem, right? These allegations. So we won't mention all the names, but you and I probably, you know, kind of like know all the names.

(35:34) Very public. And then for example, there's e fishery, there's allegations, there's investigation. So let's see what comes out. But I think it's interesting because, when it came out, I was like, not surprised in a way. I mean, not surprised, not necessarily in the e fishery case, but. Not surprised that there is a culture of fraud, you know, in Southeast Asia, right?

(35:53) I mean, I think you've probably heard the jokes, right? It's like X country has three sets of books. Y country has five sets of (36:00) books, right? You know, because of the I don't know, history with government versus tax versus what they want to manage. So I don't know, how, how do you think that happens?

(36:08) Because I think for me, my reflection is like, you know, I mean, nobody starts the fraud slide because they're like, I want to get caught in five years and have it was right about this. So so, you know, my theory is like, you know, people are like scared, right? I'm like, like you do it from an echo of, I don't know what's the word, desperation and like, you don't want to fail.

(36:29) I don't know. How do you think about it?

(36:31) Viktor Kyosev: You know, in Western storytelling, you look at movies, there is always like the good guy and the bad guy and the bad guy. and no one questions why he's a bad guy or how he turned to be a bad guy.

(36:40) Right. And, you know, I also watched some anime, right. And in Japanese. Storytelling, what you see is, yeah, there is a bad guy, but how the bad guy turned to be a bad guy. Right? So they go really deep to kind of explain at what point, what happened and how it turned. And I think there is a lot of truth to it that, you know, no one is purely evil and wants to game the system.

(36:59) And I don't (37:00) think this is only specific to Southeast Asia. I think it's human nature. It happens in many countries. Maybe less in countries like Singapore, Denmark, Switzerland, but in many countries, it is kept in the U. S. We see all the time it happens. And I think the challenge that we see is that as a founder like the people who are, in my experience, good founders are very intense, very competitive and, and to build a company from zero to one you need to be very creative in the way you solve problems.

(37:25) Like you can't just go by the same route everyone else takes because if you do that the probability of success is low and there many other companies that, are trying to do the same thing. So you need to kind of navigate the system. And I think some rules are okay to be bent a little bit here and there because they don't make sense.

(37:41) But there's some rules that you absolutely should steer away from, like accounting practices and stuff like that. So I think that intensity and competitiveness that are core traits in good founders, if they're not paired with high degree of integrity, can go very easily. It's a slippery slope. It (38:00) can go in the wrong direction.

(38:01) And I saw it with myself, not that I have committed anything bad, but when I saw a little bit of success in my life early on, I thought that I'm the shit and I know it all. And a few of my friends would come and say, you're turning into a bad person. I don't want to hang out with you. you're not the kind of person I want to have around.

(38:19) And it really made me think, and I'm like, do I really know with that?

(38:21) Jeremy Au: Do

(38:21) Viktor Kyosev: we, do I really know that much? Do we, do I know it all? And it's a very humbling experience and I tried to become a way more balanced person. And now I think twice, you know, like sometimes I get this I don't know, like opportunities that look too good to be true or, you know, that look a bit dodgy.

(38:37) And I'm like, I just want to stay away from it. I don't want, like there is this thing called, I think the symptom lab calls it the risk of ruin. Like in certain things you should absolutely stay away from, you know, like killing people and stealing things and gambling and, you know, it's just hard. No. But unfortunately, because I think the nature of many founders is such that they have this intensity.

(38:56) If they're not balanced with a healthy degree of (39:00) integrity here and there, they may take a wrong turn.

(39:02) Jeremy Au: Yeah, and I think that's the wrong turn, right? And then I think you get compounds, right? You're like, once you're in it, it's a slippery slope, right? You just gotta keep doing it. How do you explain yourself?

(39:12) You know, so so I think it's a tricky position for a lot of folks that are in that space. You know, I think, you know, kind of like double clicking here as well. It's like now that you've kind of like zoomed out from all of that, is there any advice that would give like, I don't know, I don't know. At that meeting that, let's just say you're doing a video call, but by the time when you are like the only person effectively, right.

(39:32) And then you're still pushing hard and everything. And let's just say instead of the video call, but I called you and we had a conversations, you know, imagine if it's yourself traveling back in time to video call yourself at that point of time. Several years ago. What advice would you give yourself?

(39:47) Viktor Kyosev: I think at that time I thought that it's very important to engineer my career path in a very particular way.

(39:52) And if I don't like, I need to be a founder, or maybe I need to be a VC. Like I need to be something that makes sense. and what I have realized is that there's so many (40:00) ways to reach what you want. I would likely tell myself, don't be too judgmental towards the opportunities that come your way.

(40:05) Sometimes, you know, some companies don't look great on the outside. But then you meet the founders. see what's going on. and you realize it's very interesting in the process of interviewing at that time. I interviewed with many companies and one of my realization is no matter how big a company was, like I talked to some billion dollar companies from the U S they were a complete mess on the inside.

(40:25) I realized that how you present yourself is not necessarily a reflection of how are you internally. So I should be more open minded towards opportunities coming my way. I should focus on the fundamentals rather than on looks and the brand of that business how sexy it is and how it aligns with my View of what is a great career, So be open minded, try to explore things that are not obviously great. In fact, the things that are not obviously great might be very interesting because fewer people compete for them.

(40:52) Jeremy Au: Right. And I think that's actually a big part, right? Because, you know, I'm reading the subtext here, but the reason why people want to go for VC or a (41:00) certain brand is because you have a, I don't know, inadequacy, right?

(41:03) And so you want to be like, Oh, I fail. Therefore I need something that is successful. To cover that, you know, and I say that obviously from my own personal experience as well you know, so I'm just kind of curious about how you think about that. No, 100%.

(41:16) Viktor Kyosev: it's a, I think everyone wants some degree of status and there is certain degree of insecurity that I guess we all have.

(41:23) And you know, one thing I have come to realize is If something offends me or makes me feel uneasy, likely there is an insecurity inside me rather than there is a problem with that thing. Whether it's a person, a business, a decision, whatever is going on in the world. If I feel uneasy in the past, I would kind of completely focus on that thing and be like, well, that's wrong, whatever.

(41:44) And now I'm like, okay, if I feel uneasy about this whole thing. Maybe I have an insecurity, you know, like if that job doesn't look great or if that decision doesn't look like what is the insecurity that holds me from making the right decision that is objectively good for me.

(41:58) I have realized I have a lot of (42:00) this like everyone else.

(42:01) I think it's human nature. Yeah. So you try to overcompensate by aiming for this really sexy because it does help, you know, to be honest, it does help. I see people who, you know, if you get the right career trajectory with the right brands. It does make your life easier. It is what it is. And otherwise you play life at harder mode.

(42:19) But I think it can still be very fulfilling.

(42:21) Jeremy Au: I think I like what you said earlier, which is that, you know, it is a harder board. And I think what you also said is that you can take your time, right? You know, and I think if you're trying to do everything all at once, it's impossible. I think you get tempted to do wrong things, right?

(42:34) In a sense. But I think if you relax the time scale, then some amazing things happen, right? You get a good job, you get married, you know, all these things can happen within that, I don't know, relaxation.

(42:45) Viktor Kyosev: Correct. Again, you know, like just certain things are kind of obviously great and certain things are not obviously great.

(42:50) But even though they're not obviously great, there still can be a lot of interesting things that can happen inside. Like, you know, when I talked to Docquity in the beginning, I was like, I don't know, like most of my friends don't know about Docquity, no one really (43:00) heard about it. Does it make sense? Does it not make sense?

(43:02) But I knew the founders. Yeah. Like, so I know one thing for sure, you know, the people running the business are high integrity people that I can trust, right? And they have done a wonderful job from zero to one,

(43:11) and they have done it without building any publicity whatsoever. Yeah. Maybe something is great here.

(43:16) Yeah. Maybe there is a room for me to come in and, you know, do some good things inside. So that's kind of the lesson I learned again, you know, over fixating with what we talked about earlier as a founder, your business is like I think someone, someone I, I'm, I cannot find the source right now, but someone said that when you run a company and when you have children, it's very similar areas of the brain that get triggered.

(43:40) Right? Because you think of your company like your kid. It's such a big thing. But the difference is that when your company disappears, no one really cares. And it's the same thing when you make a decision to work somewhere or to do whatever it's next. No one cares. It's, it's for you, right? The rest of the people don't really, they can't be bothered.

(43:56) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I guess the last question I want to ask you (44:00) is, could you share about a time that you personally have been brave?

(44:02) Viktor Kyosev: Hmm. I think my Maybe two times. One time when I moved to Denmark after when I was 18, I, no one in my family ever studied at university. No one has had ever traveled abroad, at that time.

(44:15) And we didn't have the financial resources. I think everyone told me that I'm stupid for doing it and that I'm going to return very soon. And including my family, they were very, very scared about myself. But I always like. So I have this strong intuition that I have to do it and it's going to push me in a good direction.

(44:31) So I did it. And the second time when I moved to Asia, because again, the moment like my life in Denmark stabilized after seven years, I had friends, I had, you know, like finally I could get a good job. I was well educated and Denmark is a wonderful place if you want to have a balanced life. But I could sense that.

(44:47) This is not the life I want and I moved to Asia. And then again, when you do that, you start from zero once again, right? So I think these two moments, I feel like a time when I don't know if I would do it today. No, I think back then made sense. But (45:00) today, I don't know,

(45:00) Jeremy Au: you wouldn't do it now. You know, like, yeah, I was brave back then, but I wouldn't move right now.

(45:05) Viktor Kyosev: And maybe I tell myself a lot of excuses about now you have a wife, you know, like you need to also look after your parents and stuff like that. But are these excuses or I don't know.

(45:14) Jeremy Au: Oh, you are happier because you have a wife and, you know, you have family figured out the job. So everything works.

(45:21) Viktor Kyosev: True.

(45:21) But, you know, sometimes you also want to, I don't know, even later in life, make these decisions.

(45:25) Jeremy Au: Right.

(45:26) Viktor Kyosev: I think, you know, I hate seeing some people later in life who clearly regret not making these decisions. and I'm really scared to become like that. I don't think I will, but it is a kind of a fear I have.

(45:36) Because. Just because you get comfortable and because you have things to look after doesn't mean you should not also pursue the best version of yourself and the best version of yourself means that you need to relocate, start a new company or whatever, or get a job, whatever it is, you know, why not do it?

(45:50) Hopefully we can always, reinvent ourselves, no matter the age and the responsibilities we have.

(45:56) Jeremy Au: Yeah, amazing. On that note, I'd love to summarize the three big (46:00) takeaways I got from this conversation. First of all, thanks so much for sharing, your experience of making a decision about whether to persevere, pivot, or wind down that company in Indonesia. And I think you shared very clearly, the, professional aspects, for example, taking three to five years to wind down an entity in the emerging markets versus, the professional side, right? Which is about, dealing with the shadow of grief, but also having to think through the dynamics of financials, visa, and going through that psychological piece.

Secondly, thanks so much for sharing. about the founder journey from transitioning from a founder identity to an employee identity or VC identity, but very much the transition about the inside out perspective about why it takes to grief, but also to learn new skills, but also let go of other skills that you previously had. And I really like what you said, which is, do you need to be founded now? Okay, be a founder again, you know, years down the road, right? So I think that's a really fascinating piece.

And lastly, thanks so much for sharing your perspective on Southeast Asia, you know, startups, obviously we talked a (47:00) little bit about some of the incentives towards fraud. I think that can happen from a founder perspective. I was talking a little bit about why you decided to move to Asia. What makes a good company from your perspective, what are the markers of strong founders and how you've landed up in a strong chief of staff role at a strong startup that you may not necessarily.

(47:17) I see it as a high status, you know, compared to other roles like VC or whatever it is. But I thought it was fascinating to hear all those aspects about it. On that note, thank you so much, Victor, for sharing your journey.

(47:28) Viktor Kyosev: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.