Xi Liu: Sexual Health, China vs. US Culture & Diving Without Knowing How To Swim - E97

· Singapore,Founder,China,Women

 "When I first moved to the US, I think it's very common you could get contraceptives or testings in a school campus. Versus like in Asia growing up, it's a very awkward thing to even talk about sex. I felt very shy to talk about such a thing, but when my classmates just randomly brought it up, or my friend would just randomly mention, "Oh, I haven't gotten my period because I was on this contraception for this long," it very shocking. But then meanwhile, I was kind of jealous of people who felt so free to talk about things, versus a lot of people from Asian countries are more shy. And we have so much hold back whenever trying to speak up." - Xi Liu

Xi Liu is the founder and CEO of Ferne Health, a women-focused healthcare insights platform that delivers at-home screenings and consultations for sexual health. Xi started Ferne Health to challenge the stigma around women's private health concerns in Asia. 

Xi was a product manager at the Alexa Voice Service team of Amazon prior to starting Ferne. Working closely with the industry giants such as Lenovo and Facebook, her team was to design and deliver Alexa voice assistant's integration experience in third-party electronic products. They successfully launched the Lenovo Smart tab and Facebook Portal, both showcased in CES. Before Amazon, she worked in the Photoshop team at Adobe, building Photoshop Mobile experience and exploring integration with new hardware input modalities such as Apple touch bar or Microsoft dial.

Xi graduated with a Master's degree in Integrated Innovative Products and Services (Miips) from Carnegie Mellon University, an interdisciplinary program hosted by the business, engineering, and design school to train the next generation of innovators and disruptors. She had her bachelor's degree in Game Design and Engineering from the Communication University of China.

This episode is produced by Kyle Ong.


Jeremy Au (00:00): 

Hi, Xi Liu. Welcome to the show. 

Xi Liu (00:02):Thanks for having me, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Au (00:04):Yeah. I'm really excited because you're tackling a really important topic in Southeast Asia. So I'm excited 

to share not just your personal journey, but also hear your thoughts on the space in Southeast Asia. 

Xi Liu (00:16): 

Yeah. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Super excited to like share some personal stories. I'm so new to the startup world or Southeast Asia, but it's definitely a very cool learning journey for me for the past year here. 

Jeremy Au (00:31):Awesome. So for those who don't know you yet, could you share a little bit about your professional 


Xi Liu (00:37): 

Yeah, sure. So I'm currently the founder and the CEO of Ferne Health. We do at-home testing services for common sexual health. That includes the STD testings or some common women's cancers, including discharge testing or UTIs. So I started the company a year ago, designed data to tackling this very taboo topic in Southeast Asia. As for me personally, when I grew up, I didn't learn enough and got enough services accessing women's health. So prior to starting this company, I was in Silicon Valley mainly working tech. My last job was actually a product manager at Amazon, nothing related to what I'm doing right now. And I personality grew up in China, so spent the past few years in Silicon Valley and then now Singapore. 

Jeremy Au (01:25):What was it like moving from China to the states for your masters? What was it like? Was it culture shock? 

Xi Liu (01:35): 

I would say it was interesting, especially that was a very different life stage for me, when I was graduating from college and entering more like professional world. So it was definitely very interesting. I started learning a lot of things from scratch. So for one, professionally we're working a very different way in Asia versus in the US, people encourage more innovation, in the way they encourage people to chase their dreams. So when you have a good idea, instead of a lot of judgmental rejection from people around me, I think I heard a lot of encouragement or even mentorship from different people to try to encourage me to actually to make it work. 

And the another thing of course, life-wise, starting from getting out of college and started working, having my own life and start to trying to figure out what to do in my personal life and how to take care of my life was also a very interesting journey. Then I started learning how to go through a doctor, and to how to talk to people, and this all actually led to why I started the business in this space later. 

Jeremy Au (02:46):Awesome. That amazing. Where did you grow up in China? So I know you studied university at Beijing, where I did an internship at Tsinghua and I worked there for a bit. But which part? 

Xi Liu (02:46): That's awesome. 

Jeremy Au (02:56):Did you grow in Beijing or did you grow up somewhere else in China? 

Xi Liu (03:00): 

So I grew up in Xi'an and also a little bit in Beijing. I went to a middle school in Beijing. Then I did my high school in Xi'an, then came back to Beijing for my college. So my family used to move around every two, three years. And I got through. I think that's when I started getting a really good adaptability, because I had to make new friends like every three years, and then getting into a new school, and trying to meet new people. So it was very interesting. 

Jeremy Au (03:25):What would you say is the difference between Xi'an and Beijing from your perspective? 

Xi Liu (03:36): 

That's a very interesting question. I think we got more chance or opportunities to learn new things when I was in Beijing, as in it's a more massive city. And then you got to see a lot of new innovation, a lot of new shows. It's probably one of the best cities in China where you got to get in touch with a lot of international services, or even just culturally, you got more international, what do you call it, like services and the products or even just like information channels. Versus in Xi'an, it's still a little bit more lacked. And so people turn to like a more focusing on what they see every day and what they learn every day. So I still remember, even when I was in college in Beijing, I got to see all of the good concerts and got to see all of the good exhibitions. So that's actually when I learned a lot of things about IOTs or smart cities, because I got to see enough. 

So later on when I moved it to the US or Silicon Valley, and then when I started working on all of those hands-on products, it's more like, "Oh, wow. I saw this like four years ago in this exhibition in Beijing, and now I'm actually working on it." So it's very awesome. 

Jeremy Au (04:53):Amazing. The viewers don't get to see this, but this looks like a bedroom of yours from before. How old were you in this bedroom with the fairies and everything? 

Xi Liu (05:06):Yeah, I was just joking about this room. So I painted this room actually when I was probably 17 or 18. I wasn't that young anymore. But you can tell, I think me personally, I think I changed a lot in the past probably 10 years. When I was a teenager, of course, my life dream is like this fairy on the wall. That I want a nice sweet life and having fun and to have a good life. And then it's probably very foreign for me when I was 17, 18 to think about, "Oh, I want to be a very professional career-driven woman, and to start creating something super new." So it's very different. And years later, when I look at the fairies on the wall, it's like, "Oh, wow. That was cute." Never thought at all I would be in a space so taboo right now, and the talking about all of the things people don't feel comfortable talking about every day. 

Jeremy Au (06:06): 

So what do you think led to that change, from that person who has drawn I think plants, vines, I guess, and fairies on a wall, on a purple wall, your bedroom, to where you are today tackling sexual wellness in Southeast Asia? So what happened? Did America happen? What happened here? 

Xi Liu (06:31): 

Maybe America changed me. I think for one, my life stage changed. When I was younger, everyone especially in Asian culture, we really respected this. You find a comfortable zone and then you stay in your comfort zone. Like don't do things that other people don't do. So of course my life goal back then was very simple, to have a sweet life and live like even what's in a fairytale, like a princess. 

But then as you grow up, or as I grew up, I started seeing more things, all of the things I probably didn't learn when I was younger. And the information I never got to receive, for example growing up I didn't know there are so many disease or infections. No one told me about those. And then I didn't know, as a mature adult, not only my small world and besides I have like a way much more things I should be thinking about or scoping out. And I think that those kind of things definitely changed me a lot. 

And also on the other hand, living abroad in a very different culture that was fundamentally different from where I came from, definitely helped me to rethink about life or rethink about what kind of like a life value I want to achieve. Do I really want to stay in a glass door, having a nice life and having my small world, or do I actually want to go out to help more people who do not have resources? Or do I want to make some impact in the world that people can actually be impacted by my changes? And those kinds of things are definitely happening in the past few years. 

Jeremy Au (08:18):Sounds like America was a big transformation in terms of experience but also it as a culture. to hear some stories about America. Could you share some stories about America? 

Xi Liu (08:34): 

Yeah, definitely. Living in America, or just the generally speaking living in a Western culture, has helped me to like reshape a lot of views. For one, very relevantly to what I'm doing right now. When I first moved to the US, I think it's very common you could get contraceptives or testings in a school campus. Versus like in Asia growing up, it's a very awkward thing to even talk about sex. I felt very shy to talk about such a thing, but when my classmates just randomly brought it up, or my friend would just randomly mention, "Oh, I haven't gotten my period because I was on this contraception for this long," it very shocking. But then meanwhile, I was kind of jealous of people who felt so free to talk about things, versus a lot of people from Asian countries are more shy. And we have so much hold back whenever trying to speak up. So I think that was a very interesting thing, definitely when I was 22, looking at other people living such a different lifestyle. 

And the second that thing was actually more relevant to when I started working. Like for myself, when I was growing up, I think the people in school or the society, people endorse those more humble or modest people who are hardworking and very focused on hands-on work, versus those who step out and talk about what they are trying to achieve. So that was fundamentally in my working style. 

But then when I started working, I started to seeing so many leaders, especially women leaders or people who trying to step up and trying to help younger more junior people to improve their working styles. And they really believe in the thing about giving back to the community. Like sharing their own experience to the younger ones or making the junior ones to feel more empowered to talk about what they are thinking about. So I think that actually helped me determine that making a startup or doing a business on my own is a very meaningful thing to do. It's not just like I focus on my work, but I'm actually trying to share what I have done in the past and trying to inspire other people. So for those people who want to do the same, they can learn from my experience. I think that those changed me a lot. 

Jeremy Au (11:13): 

Yeah. What was it like becoming a product manager? So there's no university degree that lets you say, I'm going to be a product manager when you come out. So you did a couple of transitions, right? You changed from a more design-centric thing and became a product manager. So that's also a big transition as well. What was it like becoming a PM? 

Xi Liu (11:34): 

Yeah. First I want you to circle back a little. I personally did quite a few careers which in my like a past entire professional years. I went to college for game design. It's very niche. So it's game design and development. And at some point I realized it wasn't my thing. So I started thinking about where's my passion landed, and they I decided to go for design. And then that's when I applied for a bunch of grad schools and got into Carnegie Mellon. And the program I went was a mini entrepreneurship program actually. We talked a lot about product development, about leadership. But then those all sounded very foreign to me. At 22 it's like, "Wow, leadership. That's cool. I have never worked it before." So it's very interesting. 

So after graduation I started my career in design. I moved to San Francisco and worked in design. I think at some point I started looking at a product and there are so many different aspects. And then going down into one path, either its design, or engineering, or any side of the product, you're just not focusing on one side. I think it's, again, linked back to when we were growing up, all of us were taught to be a good craftsman. And you focus on one thing, you make it good, and you become the master of that single one piece. So I think that was my value. But the more I ducked into this path, I realized it's way much more than just the one aspect of a whole product, or a whole service, or a whole business is way much more than design. So that's when I decided to switch to product manager. 

And my personal career switch was also another story. When I decided I was going to switch to product management, I talked to a lot of product managers in my team or in the industry that I knew. Lots of people shared a lot of personal advice, including you could go for a startup that didn't have a product manager. And then you could start as designer and then switch a year later. Or you could go after an MBA program and then learn your skills there. 

But to me, everything just sounded a very complicated. I personally believe I learned enough in the working environment, I have done enough work, to become a good product manager, and I don't have to go through this path. So what I did was I went to the product team, talked to the product director, and I told him that, "I'm very interested in your team. I want to join your team to be a product manager. If you can give me the chance, I would prove all of the things I would promise to do." And he actually gave me the chance. 

So that was actually one of the most amazing transitions I have to say I've ever done before my startup. Also I think one thing I really appreciated that I learned in America, that people do appreciate when you actually feel strongly about, or passionate about the thing, and if you feel like chasing it, they do give you the opportunities. And you can actually prove that you could do that. 

Jeremy Au (15:12):So you have all these great opportunities. What would you say are the culture differences between Adobe and Amazon? 

Xi Liu (15:17): 

Between Adobe and the Amazon. Adobe is a very software company. So it's a decent the size. I think Adobe is a very comfortable environment for people who enjoy working on one aspect in their profession. So if you want to be a designer, they have great design products. If you want to be an engineer, there are so many innovations that are happening inside Adobe, that's amazing. 

And Amazon, on the other hand, offers way more opportunities for people who wants to create different changes. It's a more aggressive culture that, in a sense, if you want to make things happen, you could actually go pitch your idea, and make things work, and the fight for your resources. So that's definitely a good environment for a lot of people who appreciate such a culture. 

Jeremy Au (16:22): 

So there you are. You have your PM experience in both Adobe and Amazon. You suddenly get used to the US, saying shocking things at work like, "Give me a job," and, "Let me transfer departments." And there you are. And then suddenly you're like, "Oh, Southeast Asia." So what happened? How did this happen? 

Xi Liu (16:46): 

Yes. So again, like I've mentioned, when I first graduated starting a business was a very foreign concept for me, where starting a business in healthcare or in sexual health was definitely not on my to-do list. Throughout these years, when I was working in tech, I started learning what I really liked or I disliked. So among all of the things, I'm very passionate about building an idea from scratch, like nurturing a small seed from a basic seed that you bury it and you let it grow and get flavors. But then it's actually very hard to do such a thing in a massive company. So for most products or good ideas we created inside a big team, the second a little bit more mature and it's about to getting blossom. And there might be some other things happening to the products you have to shift the focus or like resources. 

So at some point I started thinking it might be a way much more exciting thing for me to actually just pick a seed and just bury it and then let it grow. So to nurture my own cause became one of my passions. That's why I decided I would do a startup. And to me, if I do a startup, there are two things that matter a lot. One is I have two personally resonate with the cause. Because if I don't understand my customers, I would never care about a problem just like they do. And then the second part is I wanted it to have some social impact. Like I just mentioned, I personally was very intrigued by this giving back to community feeling that I have seen in my past the professional work. That I think is a very powerful thing, when you come back to a community and bring what you have learned that other people should learn, and to other people who might be interested in learning. It's a very powerful thing for me. 

So that's when I started reflecting everything and thought about my personal experience, not knowing anything about sexual health, to learning so much when I was in a very different culture. I talked to some friends and did small internal research and have learned, it's not a thing just to happen in China. It's a thing that's happening across whole Asia that we just don't feel comfortable talking about personal issues. As a woman, we don't feel empowered to mention anything that's so taboo. So yeah, that's what brought me to Singapore. I decided I would do a startup in Asia. And Singapore looks awesome. It's the center of everything. So I moved to Singapore last a year, having such a dream building a startup in Singapore, and started my journey here. 

Jeremy Au (19:58): 

Wow. That's a quite a ride to decide that you want to build a business and you just pull out the map and you say Southeast Asia. So what was it about Southeast Asia that you wanted to build this service? I mean, obviously you could have built this for China. That's where you grew up, for Xi'an, for Beijing. So what about Southeast Asia is interesting for you for this a target market and problem? 

Xi Liu (20:20): 

For one, based on our research, when I was doing the internal research talking to friends, I have a notice that this is not just a stigma problem from Chinese culture, but across whole Southeast Asia or across a whole Asian culture. It doesn't matter if you grew up in Japan, Korea, Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia. We all sort of faced the different level of taboo or stigma when it comes women's health and sexual health. So I decided to choose Singapore because it's a more diverse and inclusive culture, that we are able to meet pretty much all different kinds of profiles of upper target customers in Singapore alone, like having people from different culture here. 

And then the second reason is based on what we have researched that for some other developing countries, besides the stigma, one big reason why women don't get proper health care is actually because of the resources. We have a lot of the doctors in every country, but then the gynecology rate among the doctors is actually very low. And then if you look at the gynes, first I'm reading there are a lot of male gynes compared to females. So plus the cultural taboo that we don't feel comfortable exposing ourselves to male doctors, it actually made it very challenging for a lot of women especially in developed countries, to get proper care. So lots of women would rather delay their checkups instead of going to spending quite a few days or like a lot of money going into this very specific hospital to get their checkup. Which is why I decided to choose Southeast Asia just because, besides Singapore, most of the regions here are still in a very developing state. 

Jeremy Au (22:13): 

Oh wow. And obviously there's been quite a lot of interest in sexual wellness in terms of testing, in terms of contraception across Southeast Asia as well. So what would you say is it that Ferne Health is doing really well versus everybody else? 

Xi Liu (22:29): 

I think that it's actually one myth about if we have enough clinics where doctors, people would feel empowered to see the doctors about their sexual health. The truth is people nowadays, especially like millennials, gen Zs, we care about the whole experience as a whole package, not just the harsh demand. 

So at Ferne Health, I think one thing we did particularly well is we always prioritize our customers' needs, their personal emotional needs, their physical needs, or just on the service level, what do they expect to achieve from our services. 

Compared to most of the traditional services or a lot of new services available in the market, we spend quite some time trying to assess each customer's needs by either giving them questionnaires to fill out, or talking to them in a very personal level, and helping them to arrange even the most basic things like booking an appointment, or trying to figure out a link or talking to a doctor about some basic questions. We help each other to group the services, to provide the services as more like companionship sort of style. And that's what fundamentally I think makes us different. 

Because it's actually a very intimate topic that we are delivering to our customers about your sexual histories, about maybe some symptoms, you don't feel comfortable even to talk to your friends. So when we are booting up such companionship or relationship with our customers, we're ultimately trying to provide a very safe space for them to feel comfortable opening up, not just because they need basic care, like "Oh, I need a test," or, "I need this treatment." We're trying to provide a platform for them to speak up about their needs. I think this is also a different way to empower a woman to talk about their life. 

Jeremy Au (24:32): 

That's awesome. And so obviously I can imagine obviously lots of people are using Google to find you as well as some of the educational content that I know that you're putting out there as well. How else do people discover this topic? Is it like word of mouth? Is it a big thing here? Or is it more of something that's more taboo? 

Xi Liu (24:55): 

I do see some different patterns actually among my customers. I think customers above a certain age, or they don't feel they are more bounded by the culture or a taboo, they're more bonded by the cultural taboos. They don't feel comfortable talking to each other about such a personal concerns. And they would turn to Google or just looking for some information channels. And that's probably how they actually encounter us. Or even just because our social ads got to target them. 

But I think for younger generations, especially for among our gen Z customers, they are way, much more outspoken. They have learned. I think when they grow up, they got more chances to learn from either media or internet or other sources from the Western culture that they have a very good awareness of sexual health. They're more progressive in terms of looking for resources and they turn to talk to each other about different information channels or like resources. So word of mouth is definitely a bigger thing among our younger customers, which I personally feel very excited about to see. Because when I grew up, it's definitely not a thing that we would sit together in the group or set up a student organization in talking about sexual health. But now if you go into NUS or NTU or even other colleges, you see all different kinds of student organizations. They are trying to also empower people to talk about removing the stigma around the sexual health will help people to set up a proper or positive sex education. That's just very awesome. 

Jeremy Au (26:44):Wow. What else do you see are the differences between the younger generation that's coming up regarding sexual wellness versus the older generations? 

Xi Liu (26:55): 

I think their attitude also changed a lot towards the older generation. The older generation is probably not by word, but in people who grow up and got more impacted by other culture, I think could they feel less empowered for one to even think about the sexual health. And for two, when it comes to such a topic it's very, for them into very intrusive. 

There is a lot of stigmas around why people need sexual health. A very common one is actually, "Oh, you only need to care about their sexual health if you live a very high risk life, or you have multiple partners, or you have done something horribly wrong." And that's actually very common if you talk to people who didn't grow up getting enough sex education, or they just fundamentally think this is not an important thing. But then when it comes to a more progressive group, and often the younger group, when you speak to them, you can tell such a stigma has already been improved a lot. People do understand there's so much more you should learn besides those people who probably have a higher. And they understand the importance of other prevention using contraceptives. And they also understand the importance about getting tested. They see sexual health as one part of the movement to understand themselves as a human and to empower themselves to take care of their lives instead of taking it as a very intrusive service towards some certain groups. 

Jeremy Au (28:41): 

Wow, that's quite a bit to process, because obviously you're seeing the generational piece and I'm also sure there's a cultural piece which you're alluding to, right? The Americans versus expats versus the locals. And of course, Southeast Asia is quite distributed. And also within the population, there are different subgroups in terms of preferences and attitudes towards sexual wellness. I think when you look at all this, do you feel it's scary to tackle this topic, like the stigma? Do you feel like people judge you or anything? I'm just kind of curious about that. 

Xi Liu (29:23): 

It's actually a very interesting topic that I get asked a lot. And sometimes I actually reflected in such a thing and asking other people in the same industry or in the same space. When I first started the business, I got a lot of pushback actually. So especially, when I first started, I was new to the field of too. So in order to understand the industry or in order to set up such a business, I reached out to a lot of people trying to network in the startup world, or from the investor side, or even just in the relevant industry. For example, a lot of healthcare providers or professionals. And not everyone do understand the importance. 

For those people who care about sexual health or they have a better understanding of sex education, for example, expats in Singapore, it's often natural to them, "Oh, this is a good idea." But then I definitely got a few judgments several times. And when I tried to explain what I was trying to build, and the people gave me a look, and ask them me why I care about the such a thing. Is that because I personally are suffering from one of the infections, or I encountered some bad experience. I found this very interesting, because I think it's a very intrusive topic to even just bring it up in a conversation for some people who are more bound by the taboos. 

But then such a voice actually slowly went away. I think two things happened that actually helped to change such a voice in the industry. For one, there are more and more sexual wellness services starting to become available. Then when more people started talking about such a topic and such a service, the taboo around it just that became lighter. Because you see people talk about this and then you realize, "Oh, this is just not just like a one person who cares about this. This is not just the certain profiles I'm thinking about who care about such a topic." But it's actually a normal thing. It's actually a very big step to normalize a taboo topic by encouraging more people to jump into such a movement or talking about such a topic. 

Another thing that happened, I think ... Another thing that happened to our services before I launched the business, I got more pushback because it was an idea. So I could not many people believe some customers would benefit from such a service. But then once the business was set up, the services were available. And when we started getting a very deep bonding with our customers, when we started receiving so many positive reviews from our customers, and when we presented such a positive feedback to those people who questioned us, it became a more powerful story. There are some women, especially younger women who are suffering from such a taboo in the clinic. They got judged from, for some reasons that they were not expecting. And then this is what they shared with us. So it became more and more easier for us to actually bring up such a thing. 

Jeremy Au (32:56): 

Wow. That's really interesting that the progression of attitudes as you progress in the company, from idea to attraction and customer service, but also the range of attitudes. So starting to wrap things up here, one interesting thing is that you're being very brave because you're tackling a very taboo topic, which we just talked about. And also very brave in terms of geography. So how do you think about fear? Are you scared about this topic? I mean does it ever get to you, or do you just like, "Ah, whatever. Haters going to hate"? 

Xi Liu (33:35): 

Again, I think it's a very interesting question. Personally, I try to ignore all of the noises. Of course, I don't consider myself as a very strong person who can handle all of the emotions that well. I do feel hurt when people disagree with me, where they don't see the value in my business or in me personally. But then I try to ignore all of the noises and just acknowledge them. Some people will disagree with you and some people wouldn't see the value, but then that only means those people are not the customers or people you are trying to help. 

And then I'm trying to let myself focus on what matters the most. The reason I started such a business is trying to help a lot of women who are struggling to get a basic sexual health care without judgment. And then those are the people who matter the most to me. So as I said, they care about my business, and then they feel we actually somewhat help them in a way then that's just the good enough. 

Jeremy Au (34:46):How do you remind yourself to be brave? 

Xi Liu (34:49): 

I have this not a life motto, but in a thing I do. Whenever I feel very scared about a thing, I would try to force myself to be in that spot to experience the fear the most. Because I believe most of the time if we feel scared about the thing, that's because of the projected fear inside of our mind. It's not about the fear itself or the thing that scares us the most. 

So like in the beginning, I mentioned a story to you that I went scuba diving without knowing how to swim quite a couple of years ago. That was before I got my. And that was actually when I went through a lot of life changes, and they're trying to like reposition myself in terms of career and in terms of my life. And then one of the things I noticed, it was very minor, was I was very scared of water. I didn't know why, because I knew how to swim when I was a kid. And then when I started noticing my fear of the water, I made a decision. I should just to get into the water and try to see if this is actually the thing that scares me the most. If it is, what was the reason I'm so scared of water? 

I remember it was in San Diego. I just went to the scuba diving institute and told them, "I need a session, but I don't really know how to swim." And then in San Diego, because it's like a right by the seashore, they don't drive you on the boat, into the water. They actually require you to swim towards the center of the water, like a little bit off the seashore, and then you go diving there. That was probably one of the most scary experience I've ever got. Then after that, so for the entire time, it was very, very, very stressful for me to swim from the seashore to somewhere for someone who didn't know how to swim. And then diving into the water from there. And then I think after the whole experience, all of a sudden my fear towards water was just gone. 

So this is actually something I'm trying to encourage myself or make myself to do once a while. If I feel scared about something, I would actually force myself to do it or get into the center of the problem. And then I would know if that's actually where the fear comes from. And oftentimes that's when you'd learn, "Oh, nothing is actually that scary if you actually do it." 

So when I first moved to Singapore, that was also before I moved, everything sounded so scary. And a lot of people told me that was such a brave decision. But to me it was more like an experiment. So I just come here to a new country because I didn't know if I could do it. Then if I just move and getting there, do my startup, maybe I would fail. But most likely I would learn later this is just some imaginary fear in my mind and everything is manageable. 

Jeremy Au (38:08): 

Wow. You can definitely draw a direct line between what you just shared about a water and your fear and obviously all of the dynamics of being a founder. So we're coming up on time here, but thank you so much. So what I really loved, I think it was three parts, I think the first part of course was your honest take on what it was like to grow up in Xi'an and Beijing and America. And obviously the cultural differences at one level, but also what you grew in terms of skills and attitude over time. That was awesome. 

And the second thing that I really enjoyed was of course the dynamic around what was it like to found a business in sexual wellness in Southeast Asia, and obviously the dynamics about the market and your approach. But lastly, I think the part that really struck a chord with me of course is the last bit, which is really about fear, and doing it in some level. And at some level, the knowledge that if you do it the fear would go in at some point in time. And I think that's such a beautiful story, not just of course for swimming, but also for being a founder. And for that, I really commend you for taking and jumping off the deep end into tackling not just being a founder, but also tackling a much needed problem for so many people across Southeast Asia. 

Xi Liu (39:33): Yeah. Thank you, Jeremy.