Jiezhen Wu: CEO Struggles, Leadership Lessons from Parenthood, and Why 5-Year Plans Fail – E587

"I think sometimes we don't, and in working with leaders, sometimes I feel like we get stuck in this idea of who we are—and that's the danger when we don't give ourselves the space to evolve. Even as leaders, right? Definitely more further down in their career, maybe in their 50s, some people in their 60s—'cause you have board members as well—and some people are very, like, you know, maybe more fixed in their ideas or belief systems about, 'Oh, I just don't do that, I'm just not a good communicator,' or, 'I always struggle with empathy, I always struggle with speaking to big groups and people.' But when we give ourselves the space to acknowledge where we are, but also the room to evolve our narrative identity, our story of ourself, I think it gives us so many more possibilities of who we can become—and we don't limit ourselves." - Jiezhen Wu, Leadership Coach and Community Builder

"Becoming a parent also made me think about these things. After Harvard, I was like, 'Okay, do I go work in-house in big tech or go into more corporate consulting and impact consulting?' Like, there's so many different paths I could have taken. But I think as a parent, one of the very clarifying questions for me was like, 'Okay, I really wanna be present for my kids.' I really struggled at first—like, do I have to choose between that or doing work that I loved in the world? And the work I've been doing now is really about that integration. How do I do both? How do I be present and do work I care about in the world and really look at the impact that I wanna create? But I think that thread was clarified in becoming a parent, because I was like, 'If there's any time I'm spending away from my children, it has to count.' So where am I going to get my biggest buck, right?" - Jiezhen Wu, Leadership Coach and Community Builder

"If I'm going to invest time coaching—and I coach a variety of leaders—but if I'm working with those top teams, the ripple effect can happen within their teams and organizations. I'm coaching, like, C-suite, right? The impact of their decisions affects so many people. And I've seen the shift that can happen when leaders really step into their full potential of who they can be, and that huge ripple effect of what that means for not just the organization and the teams, but their customers, their families, their communities." - Jiezhen Wu, Leadership Coach and Community Builder

Jiezhen Wu, leadership coach and community builder, joins Jeremy Au to explore how identity, leadership and parenting intersect in shaping purposeful careers. They trace her journey from nonprofit work and Harvard to coaching C-suite leaders across Asia. Together, they reflect on living by design rather than default, the trade-offs of relocating from the US to Singapore, and the internal clarity needed to define true success. Jiezhen unpacks how becoming a mother reshaped her professional lens, why Southeast Asia holds untapped potential for leadership development, and how frameworks can guide but not dictate growth. The episode blends candid stories, cultural nuance and practical reflection for anyone navigating career and life transitions.

01:29 Identity evolves across life stages: Jiezhen shares how becoming a parent, moving countries and shifting careers reshaped how she introduces herself and lives more intentionally.

04:28 Leadership coaching creates systemic impact: Coaching senior leaders unlocks broader ripple effects across organizations, communities and even family systems.

10:08 Parenting clarified her values and time choices: Her decision to integrate work she loves with being present for her children guided her career shift and focus.

14:10 Returning to Singapore aligned purpose and place: While the US offered development, Asia felt like home with stronger roots and a clearer sense of impact.

19:09 Flexible playbooks work better than fixed plans: She encourages leaders to replace rigid five-year plans with adaptive playbooks that evolve with life’s seasons.

20:42 Success requires clarity and courage: Coaching often helps people articulate what they truly want and take steps toward it instead of staying stuck or self-sabotaging.

28:31 Tools are useful when customized to the individual: Jiezhen uses coaching frameworks, leadership dialogues and self-designed models like the Possibly Playbook to support reflection and change.

(01:07) Jeremy Au: Hey Jiezhen, excited to have you back on the show. 

(01:10) Jiezhen Wu: thanks for having me. Nice to be back. I think the last time I was on the show, I had just become a parent. We were still living in the US. So we were still in LA but I think I was back in Singapore for a bit. A different stage in my career was with a different company then, but similar space. so a lot of things have evolved. some things have stayed the same, but it's good to be back.

(01:29) Jeremy Au: And I think it's really interesting because, you have such a wonderful journey. I'd love for you to introduce yourself. 

(01:35) Jiezhen Wu: this morning I was mentoring, some youth as part of a US embassy program, and he said, every time you introduce yourself, it's an opportunity to decide who you are in the moment. Right. allowing that space for it to evolve 

(01:47) so I guess the question is who I am at this moment. And, I think that's always evolving. So right now, I am a wife, I'm a mother of two now. Almost, 1-year-old baby boy, Jasper, born last (02:00) year in Singapore after we moved back, and Juniper, who just turned four this week.

(02:03) So I think that has become a part of identity I'm a lot more comfortable with now. I think it was very fresh the last time we spoke. I'm also a leadership coach and consultant, at Korn Ferry. The company I work with, you call it a senior principal and I'm part of the CO and board practice. we coach CEOs boards, top TMC suite, typically C minus one. They call it top of the house coaching and, consulting leadership advisory, I've been enjoying that and that's what I do right now. when I was at Harvard, I started the Mindful Leaders collective. And I think that's still a big piece of, the work that I do hoping to create more conscious leaders that will build a more conscious world.

(02:37) last year when, My son was born. I also started the Mindful Mama community, which is now about a thousand moms, in Singapore. it started with, walks in nature. And that's been a big part of I think in my heart Soul, I'm a connector and a community builder.

(02:52) I thrive. And my husband Jared too, you know, we both really thrive in community and I think most humans do, but I think we're quite intentional (03:00) about. Seeking out community and if we can't find it, build it, right? So I think that's a big piece of, the chapter I'm in right now finding ways to continue to be involved in, a larger ecosystem here in Singapore now that we're back.

(03:14) Jeremy Au: So there's so much to unpack. there's so many identity changes. One from, non-profit leader and Harvard graduate to now a leadership coach, and consultant, then from the US to Singapore and Southeast Asia. from a new mom to a veteran mom 

(03:31) Jiezhen Wu: Like, I think the second time round there, there's definitely a sense of ease that, for me at least, wasn't there. When you're just trying to figure out, like learning the rope, trying to make sure everything is okay. But yeah, a lot of shifts. So we are excited to explore that today. 'cause I think we're always evolving, right?

(03:46) And I think sometimes we don't, and in working with leaders, sometimes I feel like we get stuck in this idea of who we are. And that's the danger when we don't give ourselves the space to evolve. even as leaders, right? 

(03:56) Definitely more further down in their, career maybe in their fifties. Some people, (04:00) their sixties. 'cause you have board members as well, and some people are very maybe more fixed ideas or belief systems about, oh, I just don't do that. I'm just not a good communicator or I always struggle with empathy.

(04:10) I always struggle with speaking to big groups and people. But when we give ourself the space to. Acknowledge where we are, but also the room to evolve our narrative identity, our story of ourself. I think it gives us so many more possibilities of who we can become. We don't limit ourselves. 

(04:26) Jeremy Au: So let's get into that. what's interesting is that, you're very much in a space of leadership coaching today. if I look at the evolution of how I first knew you. As a nonprofit leader, And we were both in nonprofits at the same time, back in 2012. it's been about 10 years since that time period. 

(04:42) I seen you evolve and obviously there was this interim, period where you were at Harvard learning and changing. but how did you. Make that arc towards, leadership. you could have, I don't know, there so many path you've done, you know, so, what was it that said like, okay, this is. The thread. That makes sense. 

(04:59) Jiezhen Wu: So I think the (05:00) thread has always been, for me, impact, 

(05:03) I think that was the reason why I got into the nonprofit space to begin with. in 2017. I did a talk called Doing Good doesn't have to look a certain way, And I think that's still something I believe, that there are so many ways to give back and do good.

(05:17) the premise was, I was seeing a lot of people, young people in particular, wanted to make a difference in the world. And they were all stuck. Like, do I have to go into the social sector? Do I have to, work in social services to do good?

(05:28) And while that is a very important. part of the ecosystem that cannot only be the part that, everyone is going to invest in. I think what I was seeing with the work I was doing, back then at The Hidden Good is that, I learned so much about leadership in those years 

(05:43) Just observing what makes organizations thrive and what makes some of them struggle. being able to Ask ourselves where can I play the biggest role or where can I position myself that will allow me to create the most meaningful impact? for different people, that's (06:00) different things, right?

(06:00) Based on your skillset, based on the kind of impact you wanna see. And with the work we were doing, I was like, okay, this is great. I love the ground up, like community, always been a community person, but at the same time I'm like, how do we shift the larger narrative, right? In organizations in the larger ecosystem. becoming a parent also made me think about these things. after Harvard I was like, okay, do I go work in-house in big tech or go into, more corporate consulting and impact consulting.

(06:25) Like, there's so many different paths I could have taken. but I think as a parent, one of the very clarifying questions for me was like, okay, I really wanna be present for my kids. I really struggled at first, like, do I have to choose between that or doing work that I loved in the world And the world I've been doing now is really about that integration, 

(06:42) How do I do both? How do I be present and do work I care about in the world and, really look at, that impact that I wanna create. I think that thread was clarified in becoming a parent because I was like, if there's any time I'm spending away from my children, it has to count.

(06:56) So where am I gonna get my biggest buck, right? Like, if I'm going to (07:00) invest time, coaching, and I coach a variety of leaders, but if I'm working with those top teams, the ripple effect can happen within their teams and organizations and coaching like C-Suite, right?

(07:12) the impact of their decisions affect so many people, and I've seen the shift that can happen when leaders really step into their full potential of who they can be and That huge ripple effect of what that means for not just their organization, and their teams, but their customers, their families, their communities.

(07:32) when I ask myself, where can I create the impact I wanna see in the world, a lot of it was in working with, Senior leaders who are gonna make that difference, in the world. 

(07:42) Jeremy Au: I think it's interesting because, what seemed to impact you was that blend of both being at Harvard as well as becoming a parent. I'm curious, What would you say specifically at Harvard changed for you? And what specifically being a parent changed for you for this career choice? 

(07:57) Jiezhen Wu: So I can't remember if I shared with you about the (08:00) program and the course of study I was doing at Harvard, focused on leadership and organizations, it was based at the business school. HBS, the Kennedy School Public Policy and the Ed school. Looking at learning organizations, how do we help people learn to become, more of who they can be and all the developmental pieces of it.

(08:17) then also at MIT, it was very interdisciplinary, Harvard allowed me to see what it could look like when we take a more holistic approach to leadership and learning and organizations that were not looking at through a business lens or a policy lens, or a learning like educational developmental lens.

(08:35) what it looks like to really look at That whole picture. and I think that is. More of the conversation that we need and, and I think, the world today. It's really not just, looking at a balance sheet it's not just looking at engagement numbers it's really about that holistic approach 

(08:52) Looking at the larger system. And thinking about where the leverage points are to create that impact and change. I really think we are in the (09:00) era of the collective. Like collective intelligence, collective change. It's not just about the individuals. even CEOs, if you look at leadership in the world today, it's not about that singular hero. sometimes reluctant CEOs, maybe they're naturally more introverted or reticent. They're like, for the greater good, I have to step into this role.

(09:16) They're not the most naturally, charismatic, loud person in the room, but they see the larger vision and purpose, and they see their role as, how do I bring my team together? Assemble the Avengers, right? and I think that being at Harvard allowed me to see that, from a multitude of perspectives instead of just one kind of approach that there are so many ways.

(09:35) So I think that Harvard for me was that I think bringing together, connecting the dots. And I think parenting for me has been about. Clarifying the dots. I think becoming a parent has clarified my priorities, how I wanna spend my time.

(09:49) I think that has been, such a gift, to really be present with my kids, but also with myself, kids really make you. Pause if you allow them to, I do think that when (10:00) we give ourselves that moment to pause, it becomes this huge reflection of who we are what's important to us and who we wanna be. 

(10:08) Jeremy Au: No, I think it's really interesting because becoming a dad also changed me quite a bit.

(10:11) I mean, obviously in different domains. More on the personal side, but definitely has created a new threshold for me I was supposed to have dinner with the kids and was nothing else to do. So I put on my VR headset and I was playing a Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game.

(10:25) I was like an American guy, a Chinese guy, and some European guy was just playing. By the time I took my headset, I missed dinner. I missed bedtime and it was late night. So a couple hours just flew by, and I was like, I'm not doing this again. 

(10:39) Jiezhen Wu: How did you feel in that moment? What hit you? 

(10:41) Jeremy Au: I think first of all, it was a great game I was blown away I'm a believer of virtual reality because I play a board game with three other people we played it and had a lot of fun for three, four hours and, we completed a campaign.

(10:53) it was fantastic. But I think part was disappointment, Because I was looking forward to dinner. I wanted to have fun and put them in for bedtime. number (11:00) three was kind of guilt, 

(11:00) Because you feel responsible and that you should be a parent, that you should be there. And then I was like, no, I was just playing. 

(11:07) Jiezhen Wu: I think there's so many ways to parent. Right? and then, you know, working with. A lot of the leaders are also parents. and just being in the community of a lot of parents right now a lot of people have all these expectations, which I struggled with when I first became a parent.

(11:18) It's like, what being a perfect parent mean? and I think people have realized that there is no perfect parent, there's no perfect mom or dad. if they're perfect, they probably don't exist. it's really about, 

(11:28) Deciding what kind of parent we want to be one of my professors and mentors said, parenting is the most impactful leadership development experience you can have It will challenge you look at some of the beliefs or philosophies or ideas you have about the world and decide whether this is something I wanna pass on to my kid. I think that's where the whole idea of consciousness, comes in.

(11:45) Like conscious parenting, conscious leadership, conscious living, like being conscious about what we. bring into our space, right? Whether that's at work or at home, I think a lot of times we also put unnecessary pressure on ourselves, right? To be (12:00) like, who do I need to be?

(12:01) Is being a good parent, spending 24/7, with my kid? You know, is it about. making sure that I take care of my health. You know, making sure you go exercise, go to the gym so I can be more present with my child. Or making sure that I have like, social time with friends or, date night with my spouse so I can be more present.

(12:18) Or is it about the a hundred percent devotion? I think there's no right or wrong, but you need to decide for yourself what that means. Right? 

(12:25) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I really love that statement about, being perfect. especially in the context of work as well.

(12:30) Yeah. It's like you also have be the perfect colleague. What does that mean? 

(12:32) Jiezhen Wu: I feel like perfection often trips us up, right? the ideals of perfection also stop us from being who we really need to be and who we can really be.

(12:42)  

(12:42) Jeremy Au: yeah, and I think you made me think about something, which is that, for parenting, one thing that makes it difficult is the Instagram parenting, right? I have to admit that you have a great Instagram as a mom. every time I see your Instagram, it's like, ah.

(12:56) Jiezhen Wu: it's funny you mention that because I was just thinking, I don't post a lot on (13:00) Instagram. I wish I was more intentional about my content. 'cause I do like sharing. 

(13:04) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(13:04) Jiezhen Wu: Insights and reflections. I see Instagram as a journal.

(13:07) I use it as a space to capture moments in time because you got your photo roll. I take a lot of pictures. I think Instagram's a nice way to capture moments in time. I feel like I wanna be more intentional about Instagram. It's funny, right? People's perception versus reality.

(13:22) Yeah. And I definitely have moments that I'm like, oh, are we doing this right? what I've found, especially during this second time around with baby number two is that, there's no right thing.

(13:32) It's just what's right for you and your family, I think the same thing applies with organizations, right? And leadership. It's like so many times I've worked leaders that think they have to be a certain way to be a good leader. But it's really what does their team mean?

(13:46) What does the organization need? what do you need right now? a lot of people have this idea of a leader, in their head that maybe they haven't articulated also. And the singles are parenting. I think people have this idea and it's often. (14:00) Deciding what works for you.

(14:01) I think you and your wife have made decisions that, support where you're at right now, making sure you get the support that you need at different stages. I remember we talked about that. And you're like, yeah. and Singapore allows for that. 

(14:10) Jeremy Au: Yeah, that's interesting decision as well because, you know, it's not just the fact that you chose to do leadership coaching, but that you also chose to return from the US to Singapore and Southeast Asia. I have done the same journey, right? I returned from, Southeast Asia. And I have gotten no end of questions and debate about both sides of it. Which is like, good job, you stayed in Singapore. And then other side is like, why are you in Singapore? It's a dead end and America is the land of opportunity and milk and honey. So I'm curious what was that, because you were weighing both the career side? As well as the, family side as well. 

(14:42) Jiezhen Wu: Definitely. Everyone has their perspectives or opinions I think a lot of the work that we need to do in this life, whether that's parenting, leadership, coaching, careers. kind of like being able to acknowledge the noise. 'cause the noise is feedback, it's information, but not (15:00) get sucked into the noise.

(15:01) Right. And I think for. Me and my husband Jared, we've always been quite intentional, about our relationship. You know, through the years from the days that we're dating until, now, and you know, we have regular check-ins 

(15:13) With each other. we try, like in a company you do one-on-ones, The team, we do one-on-ones. 'cause you check in when things are good, not just when things are like, what's going on. so we try to have those, regular check-ins 

(15:22) And I think this emerged from a conversation, right? That we're like, how much longer do we all see ourselves every time we made a move, whether it was to the US and our coming back. It's been an ongoing conversation. And then it's also knowing when it feels right to make that shift. 

(15:36) For my work, actually, the work that I've always wanted do is here. Like being at Harvard, being in the US was a great place to learn. the leadership space is definitely, more mature. They're a bit more saturated as well. but it's definitely more developed, right?

(15:52) So being able to learn from different modalities, like practices, approaches, bodies of work whether that's at Harvard or when I was (16:00) working after that, in the leadership advisory, space. But the impact that I always wanted to have was here. in Asia, 

(16:07) Even with the hidden good, it was always like Singapore, Southeast Asia, Asia, And I think I have a much bigger vested interest in this part of the world. But I think there's so much potential also. And I get so excited now, whenever I work with Singapore companies, Asian owned businesses, 

(16:23) Some of them might be newer to this work which means there's a bit more time to warm up, get a sense of what they wanna get out of it But at the same time, the potential is huge, I didn't have the same kind of fire, working in the US Bank, than I do with local players here 

(16:38) I love, winning as an individual, but there's something that I love when I winning, which is helping others win. Which is why I think I entered the coaching consulting space I still don't see myself as a coach. Primarily, I see it as one of the tools I use in the work that I do.

(16:51) I see myself as a facilitator, like connector of all the different kind of conversations, narratives to really (17:00) help people become that fullest version of themself. And to be as conscious and intentional about how they're living, how they're leading. how they're learning.

(17:08) that move back for us was really more of a pull back to Singapore. this is what excites me, and where I feel most connected as a region the US was a great place to learn and grow and get that exposure. raising our daughter, Juniper in the US was beautiful. there was a lot of freedom to it, Because the noise was kind of further away, LA is very spread out, so your friends live far, but, you know, she grew up like. On the beach, you learn to walk on the sand, you know? And like we lived like a 10 minute walk, to the beach and we would just spend a lot of time down there. we love the life we built for ourselves there.

(17:41) People always ask us whether we like LA. Your experience of LA and the US in general is very dependent on where you live. and how you live. Because your neighborhood, what you're surrounded by, what your day-to-day life looks like can vary very much even within LA Right. Like so. I love the life that built ourself there. I love that we were like five (18:00) minute walk to Trader Joe's. Like we had a farmer's market every weekend. my husband was training at like Gracie University, which is like the headquarters of juujitsu in the entire country.

(18:09) Thankfully Singapore has one Training center but it's different. we would take road trips all the time. My pandemic activity was hiking every weekend. Because LA had So many hikes. we loved that. Jared and I are pretty close to our family, right? My parents, his parents all here in Singapore. And we knew that we didn't wanna miss his time as well. We didn't want our kids to, we would come, they would come visit us, we would come back. But every time my parents or my in-laws saw, you know, remember she'll be in a different state. One day she's like calling and she walking.

(18:36) We really wanted her to grow up with her grandparents. And we also asked ourselves like, what would we regret? Right? and I think, so we had our stint in the US and it's also knowing when it's time to evolve the seasons.

(18:47) So yeah, we said maybe in Five years, right? We'll do five years and then we'll come back my dad was admitted to the hospital and he was in the ICU for a number of months that was also another big wake up call.

(18:58) I think very clarifying in (19:00) terms of like. Okay. I know we said we were gonna stay here, so somebody's life also happens thankfully he's better now. But that was a big pull for us to come back faster. we sped it up by a few months.

(19:09) Or, yeah, so just learning to listen to, I think it's a really important life and leadership skill. Like not to just fight and say, oh, this is plan. I'm gonna stick to my plan no matter what. even when I coach people now I say it's not about the five-year plan.

(19:24) We are really looking at creating a playbook. Because playbooks can evolve. plans don't. I already committed to this, my goal, like I'm not gonna budge. But knowing that prototypes evolve, Plans can evolve. think of it more a dynamic playbook as I think how we should think of life.

(19:40) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense and I really empathize with all of it, I do Miss Trader Joe's and Farmer Markets. 

(19:46) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah.

(19:47) Jeremy Au: So I think there are definitely some positive, but I also really resonated part of like, for me, myself, I didn't really get to know my grandparents because they passed away. I was young. For me it was like, oh-

(19:56) Jiezhen Wu: it's precious to see your parents become grandparents You know? 

(19:58) Jeremy Au: a special gift for (20:00) them. 

(20:00) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah. 

(20:00) Jeremy Au: then you go do your call. 

(20:01) Jiezhen Wu: No, it's support. Right? 

(20:02) Jeremy Au: Support.

(20:03) Jiezhen Wu: One thing to have that relationship. And another to have that support, that makes it sustainable, right? To do the work in the world and to have, that. Network of support that is supporting your personal, family and life at home as well.

(20:16) And Singapore definitely allows for more of that, whether that's family paid help or government subsidies. the fact that they have a working mom subsidy, I know people say it's not a lot, but it's better than not having anything at all in the us.

(20:29) definitely puts a lot of things into perspective, right? coming back was part. professional, personal. But also really about sensing the pulse of the time and knowing, I think it's time now. 

(20:41) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. And you know, I agree with you about that because I also felt like there's definitely a higher career ceiling in the us, but I felt like as a parent, I think one of us would've stay home effectively. So yeah. That's why I discussed my wife is like, one of us would stay home to take care of the kids. And that's okay. 

(20:57) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah. 

(20:57) Jeremy Au: Five years what does it look like? The options solution (21:00) set is very different. I think it's an interesting piece where, People have five year plans versus a playbook.

(21:05) And you know, I think even I reflect about it when I was younger, I was very much like, this is my plan, right? And then now I'm like, okay, what does a good week look like? What does a good day look like? But I'm just kind of curious, like, Are there trade offs from moving from a plan to a playbook? Like, do you become a loser and you get promoted? 

(21:23) Jiezhen Wu: I think the playbook doesn't mean that you know what direction you're moving in. But you're a lot more open to the place, right? The different variety of places it's not so rigid. someone asked me the other day, I'm sure you've coached a lot of very successful people. Who are the ones that are very unsuccessful. I was like, okay, that's a really interesting question the ones that are really unsuccessful, the ones that really struggle are the ones that aren't willing to get out their own way. they say they want these things and at the same time, they just don't. Where do you wanna be? What's in the middle? They're like, oh, actually it's me.

(21:52) When people realize that, they can make shifts. They can start to shift behaviors or develop practices that strengthen certain muscles that need (22:00) more development. In terms of a plan versus a playbook, it's really more of a way of being, you have strategy playbooks for companies and businesses. You can't apply the same methodology to yourself, right? what is a 10 outta 10 life look like? What is a 10 outta 10 career like?

(22:14) What does that look like? And then you walk back from there. 'cause a lot of people work from a place limitations. Like, okay, I'm here now, where can I go next And sometimes that limits us 'cause the playbook we're playing with is bounded by what we know today as opposed to that blue sky mind.

(22:27) one of my mentors, said this right? He said, that it's important to plan, but also be willing to the plan out the window. And I think that's the essence of the playbook, not to be so stuck on your plan that you miss the forest for the trees, miss the moment.

(22:41) some people are so set on like, I need to like hit this target, right? That they miss. The journey along the way, right? Like so many people I know that like, or my goal is to become CEO or to like, you know, get this promotion and then they get it and they're like, wait, I'm still not happy. I'm still not, like, I'm still not fulfilled, still not thinking I'm (23:00) creating the impact I wanna create.

(23:01) So, it's about rethinking, the ways we move in the world, in our lives. it's playing that infinite game, right? Simon Sinek, it's not about, just hitting goals and checking them off the list. But playbook allows you to evolve. Because there's some things that you never. win. You don't win at parenting. You don't win at being a leader. maybe there are certain milestones. but it's an overall way of being as opposed to a way of doing. A lot of people get caught up in the past.

(23:28) Jeremy Au: I think when you say who was successful versus unsuccessful, I thought that was a great. Question. It's actually hilarious. because I think there's a definition of success versus unsuccessful from career perspective. And I think for me it's, you are successful if you get what you want And if what you want is a stable life 

(23:45) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah. 

(23:46) Jeremy Au: With wonderful time with kids and a slow progression path. That's success. I think unsuccess happens when. people say they want to get something, but they not really pushing to get it. Or they're contradictory to it, or they don't wanna pay a price. 

(23:58) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah. They get their own way. (24:00) They say they want this thing and then they do everything that's like self sabotage people need to sometimes unpack a lot of what is under that, right?

(24:07) Like, why are they doing that? what benefits and payoffs are they getting from that? And we do a lot of that, not just with. Leaders, but also their teams. And I've seen a lot more of this work at a team level, because like I said, CEOs, no longer just the answer, right?

(24:20) It's like, how do I bring everyone into the fold? How do I align? and that's really powerful when we work with organizations, right? And we work with, a whole level of leaders, they get to learn like, you know, we don't. Necessarily have to be the ones like, you know, engineer connections, but they're all working on winning together, right?

(24:42) And winning as one team, then everything starts to flow, I think being able to be successful, my husband and I were talking about this a while back, what does it mean to have it all We were talking about who has it all and what he, landed on, was that.

(24:54) you can have it all if you know what all means. being successful is just what (25:00) do you want in your life? a lot of people don't know. They don't have the clarity. a lot of my coaching is around the clarity to figure out what you want and the courage to actually live it.

(25:08) people maybe they say, I wanna do this, I wanna start business or something. And the courage to actually go and do it is the next thing. Maybe they have the clarity. On what success looks like, but do they actually have the courage to put rubber to the road and take the steps to make it happen? To develop the daily Habits or practices that will get them closer to where they wanna be. 

(25:27) Jeremy Au: Yeah. No, I think you remind me of somebody like Anthony Bourdain. he's somebody that, everybody looked up to as living the life. He's successful. He's charismatic, he's traveling the world. at the end of his life, he unfortunately committed suicide. he was, Separated from his ex-wife, from his daughter, he felt lonely. And suicidal because of a broken relationship. And so it was an interesting dynamic for me, which is like, this is somebody who is to be like 

(25:51) Jiezhen Wu: the public persona and perception. And I think that's not uncommon, right? That some of the most outwardly successful people inwardly really struggle. a lot of the (26:00) work we do in leadership coaching ends up being a space where they get to unpack these things. Sometimes it's too high stakes, To talk about this stuff with your chairman your boss your manager or your spouse having neutral spaces to do that is very important.

(26:16) I don't know if he had confidence or people that he had spaces to do that with, right? we call that incongruence When your outside doesn't match your inside and everyone's like, oh, he is amazing. doing all these things and it's so respected in the world, travel and food and all of that.

(26:30) And yet internally probably very foreign and struggling. having more spaces that make it okay to talk about these things is so important. it's evolving, opening, up in the last couple of years.

(26:41) when we look at mental health and wellbeing. it's giving people the vocabulary and the language to talk about these things, especially for a lot of people that maybe didn't grow up with it. it's spaces like that.

(26:51) So I think a lot of what sometimes we do is to create that space for people to take a step back, we call it powerful pause, right? Sometimes where you're like, lemme pause and check (27:00) in on where I'm at. Especially if you're a very senior leader in a company you're probably running at like a hundred miles an hour all the time and you won't stop.

(27:07) And, giving people that space to stop and pause and be like, what's going on? You know, can be really helpful and powerful rather than just keep going because you think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. This is what success looks like. 

(27:20) Jeremy Au: What does success look like for executives?

(27:22) Jiezhen Wu: I think it goes back to what we were talking about, They need to define that for themselves, and a lot of them haven't. They're just meeting the KPIs that were set out for them, at a personal and professional level, people need to ask themselves that.

(27:35) Maybe every year, at least annually. people need to define that for themselves within their context, I was coaching a doctor, And for her it was like, how do I make a difference in the larger healthcare sector? And be more patient at home with my partner and with my children, some people will be, oh, doctor would be like, how do I publish more articles or get into this (28:00) program people need to define what that looks like on a professional and personal front. I can't tell you how many I've talked to that were like, okay, so who are you outside of work? And they cannot answer me. a lot of people are completely intertwined with their work and their careers that they don't really know who they are. I always ask people who are you when you put all these things down, a lot of people ambassadors, diplomats, and they're so intertwined with the identity of who they are and their title. But when we can look at ourselves and ask ourselves that, it becomes a lot more clear how we wanna live our lives. 

(28:31) Jeremy Au: is there any tools or frameworks For people to be able to define it? Do they go journaling? Do they go into a silent meditation retreat for 10 days? What's the approach for people to. Get that. 

(28:42) Jiezhen Wu: We have a framework at Korn Ferry, right? Like, you know, we're pretty holistic about it. I mean, we have like assessment tools, but we also have what we call leadership dialogues where we sit down to leader and reflect on their life basically for several hours. And then put that into play. And, you know, in my work in coaching at the possibly playbook, which my own (29:00) practice that I was doing before Korn Ferry, I guide people through it, because if I send people the template, They're like, how do I fill this? It's meant to be. having someone ask you the question sometimes is much easier than you trying to do it in your own head space. Because you have that bouncing of ideas and flow.

(29:16) so there are a lot of tools and frameworks out there. But I think it's to find what works for you. Not everyone wants to sit in a meditation retreat for a week. I do. I enjoy that. I did that when I was seven months pregnant last year. It was great. Like put Jasper on a meditation, mindfulness retreat.

(29:30) Which is why I think he's so calm. He's like super zen as a baby. very chill. some people do, go run a marathon, right? I think it's the Practices that work for you. a lot of people don't give themselves that chance They kind of just keep doing the same thing. they think, oh, this person is doing this, so I should just follow. even morning routines, right? Some people actually thrive in the morning routines. Some people just embrace the fact that they're just not morning people, they have their, Evening routines. I think it's being very intentional with designing a life and being conscious about creating a life that works (30:00) for you, For the work that you wanna do in the world, for your family.

(30:03) for your community. it takes, that consciousness and intentionality to design it rather than to let it happen to you. one framework we use is called design and default, A lot of people live life by default. It's kind of like, oh, this is the path on. I went to this school, I went to this job, you know, default. a lot of people who are very successful can just continue doing that. default works, right? The default way of managing has worked up to that point, 

(30:25) But when we live life by design, like when we're actually designing for all these things, life happens in a very different way, right? We get to really maximize our life potential, our life energy, that life force within, right? I'm sure you've met some people. You're like, how do they do all those things in one day? And I'm sure people say that about you too. I think the people that are living life at that fullness are those that have. Chosen to live life by design. 

(30:51) Jeremy Au: And you know, I think my last question I have here is if you could travel back to your 21-year-old self, would you carry a workbook (31:00) of these exercises and frameworks? 

(31:02) Jiezhen Wu: Yeah, it was funny when I was going back to work after, you know, maternity leave, taking some couple months off. and I was like, okay, what do I want?

(31:11) Then I took my own framework. I had coached several senior black women that were going back to work, you know? and I was, I need to apply this stuff to myself, Yes. In some ways it would be nice to have some of these tools, but it's also the head space you're in.

(31:24) when they say the student's ready, the teacher appear. And I'm sure you know, a lot of these methodologies, tools, framework has been around for a very long time. Right. You know, and the tools have existed, but right now in Asia, there's a much bigger appetite and openness to leadership development coaching than there was even 10 years ago people are seeing.

(31:46) the value it's not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength. to be open enough to say, I can't see everything. I have my blind spots. How do I bring in the right people? Assemble my team that, will have my back coaches that will help me see things I cannot see. I (32:00) think it's also the readiness, right? I would say trust the journey. Trust the path. 

(32:04) Jeremy Au: Were you ready at 21? 

(32:06) Jiezhen Wu: I was always very involved in community impact, since early days, right. I think, since secondary school even. but I was also feeling like. what does my work look like in the world? that was the question. And knowing that I didn't need to have all the answers, I would probably tell myself, you know, the whole trend of like, I'll sit down my younger self for coffee.

(32:25) To remind myself that I don't need have all the answers. I don't have to have it all figured out. 'cause I think that's where a lot of my grief and struggle was, is like feeling like I need to decide right now Someone told me like, don't get caught in the forever trap, just 'cause you're doing something right now.

(32:38) You'll do it forever and you can always evolve. I think that's one thread we've been talking about today allowing yourself the space to evolve and to become who we want to be at 21, I was already kind of dabbling, but it's also the timing of am I ready? A lot of this world comes with, more experience and more exposure to what is out there. I think in 21 maybe I was a bit more idealistic and now I (33:00) feel more grounded. with who I am, what I hope to see in the world, what, impact I hope to have. So, yeah, I think a lot more ease. In that. 

(33:09) Jeremy Au: Amazing. thank you so much. I'd love to summarize the three big takeaways. First of all, thanks for sharing. about your journey from non-profit leader to Harvard student, to, leadership coaching I think some of the thoughtfulness and dynamics of having to choose a different path and defining your own set of success, has been really interesting to hear.

(33:28) thanks for sharing about your own experience becoming a parent and. How becoming a parent has, evolved you as a person, but also how people should see how it ties with their own private and public selves, both professional and personal lastly, thanks for sharing some of your leadership coaching, frameworks about how people should be talking about their career and, using that, opportunity to reset their journey and make a decision about what the new feature for them looks like. Thank you so much for sharing. 

(33:56) Jiezhen Wu: Hope we all really step into that fullness of who (34:00) we can be and the world would be amazing. 

(34:02) Thank you for listening to Brave. If you enjoyed this episode, please share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. We would also appreciate you leaving a rating or review. Head over to www.bravese.com for member content, resources, and community. Stay well and stay brave.