Vikram Sinha: Telco Merger Playbook, AI Bets & The Risk Most CEOs Avoid – E586

"And personally, of late, I've been spending a lot of time on AI. I believe AI plus 5G—which needs low latency—can solve a lot of problems. Think of it: if I can have a personal assistant as an agent who helps me on every step, a personal nurse who understands me and gives me proactive guidance, every child will have a personal tutor as an agent. My two decades of learning in terms of all the evolution of G, we were too focused on speed. Speed can only do so much. Yes, we saw a lot of things which were not possible earlier, and that got started with 3G, but it completely got demonstrated on 4G. The 5G potential will get unlocked now, which is AI plus 5G." - Vikram Sinha, CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison

"The key learning which I got is, if you make mistakes, also be honest and upfront. Audit is not to catch you; audit is to improve your own mistake. So there is a difference between mistake and integrity. I think I keep teaching all my employees that it is okay to make mistakes, so don't mix mistakes with integrity. And because I was very honest, I was upfront, I was not hiding anything, it was categorized as a mistake. If I would have tried to make up something, it would have been an integrity issue, and I would have lost my job." - Vikram Sinha, CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison

"Personally, the most brave decision I took was to accept the assignment of a merger. The moment I was told, I was excited, but when I spoke to a few of my close friends, everyone told me that it was a recipe for disaster. Most of the CEOs who had taken this on lost their job in 12 to 18 months, maximum two years, because telco mergers—if you go back in history—close to 100% were failures. There wasn’t any example of success. And that is what I started in 2022. People supported me, my family supported me, and my team. I have to say, now we have become one. We looked at each other as a management team—it has been three years now—and we said we have two choices: one, to become history, or two, to create history. Let's work towards creating history. So it’s mind over matter. We started with that mindset." - Vikram Sinha, CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison

Vikram Sinha, CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison, speaks with Jeremy Au about his personal journey, the power of distribution, and why AI is not just another wave of telecom innovation. They retrace his career from selling mobile plans to leading a successful merger, discuss why distribution is still the biggest driver of growth in emerging markets, and unpack how AI must be localized, inclusive, and protected from bad actors. Vikram explains why telcos should stop blaming regulators, focus on customer experience, and build sovereign infrastructure to stay competitive. He shares how his leadership is shaped by integrity, purpose, and prioritizing people over process even when facing fear and uncertainty.

01:33 Career pivot from engineering to business: Vikram switched paths after his mother's passing and landed his first job at Coca-Cola while selling mobile plans during a summer break.

09:16 Learning integrity through a mistake: A personal audit error at Coca-Cola taught him to separate mistakes from dishonesty and to lead with transparency.

13:56 Distribution is telecom’s real advantage: Vikram used FMCG distribution playbooks to build direct rural reach in India, Africa, and Indonesia.

19:01 4G fulfilled 3G’s promises, AI will fulfill 5G’s: He believes AI paired with low-latency 5G will unlock scalable breakthroughs in health, education, and productivity.

25:47 Early AI investment is essential: Vikram urges telcos to move beyond comfort zones and lead national infrastructure efforts to ensure sovereign digital capability.

26:57 Customer experience over excuses: Telcos must stop blaming regulators and instead deliver seamless service that earns long-term user trust.

44:06 Brave leadership in a merger turnaround: Despite industry odds, Vikram led a successful telco merger by focusing on mission, mindset, and team strength.

(00:53) Jeremy Au: Hey, good to see you! Thank you so much for taking the time. You have had such an experience, in the telecom industry and this really fascinated to hear that story.

(01:02) Vikram Sinha: Well, it's an absolute pleasure, you know, being with you. 

(01:05) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Could you, introduce yourself? 

(01:07) Vikram Sinha: My name is Vikram. I am the CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison. We are one of the telecom in Indonesia with close 100 million customer. More than $3 billion revenue. And the good thing is, we are one of the few who have committed to AI and we are in that journey.

(01:27) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Fantastic! so, you know, obviously, there's so many questions about what's it like to be a CEO of a telecom and so forth. But let's go all the way to the beginning which is, what were you doing in university? Did you ever imagine at university that one day you'd be a CEO of a telecom? Was that probably a big plan when you were like, I don't know, 18 or 19 years old? 

(01:46) Vikram Sinha: You know, memory down the lane, I started from a small town in India. I came from Jamshedpur, but that town was known as Tata Steel. very focused on education upbringing but after my high school, I went to Bangalore. Bangalore today is known as the Silicon Valley of India. But those early days, it was also known as the Rose Garden of India. It was so beautiful. Good weather. I still remember my school in Bangalore, never used to have even the ceiling fan. Used to be so good. 

(02:18) Things have changed. But coming back to your point, I never thought that I'll be a senior or I'll be doing something like this. But what was clear on my mind, that I want to do something which is not usual, you know, you have to stand out so that instinct was always there. Things which are never done before, enjoy doing hard things, challenging the status quo that DNA was always there, but never ever I thought that I want to be a CEO or something like this.

(02:45) Jeremy Au: When you said that you always wanted to change the quo, how did that show up when you were a teenager? Were you rebellious? Were you a good student? Were you doing different activities? You know? 

(02:55) Vikram Sinha: Yes. I was always into sports. And I had a younger sister. We were the same school and she was always academically very strong. I still remember my parents- teacher meeting, you know, where my teacher told my mom, my mom used to be a professor and a principal for college, which train the teachers, certify them. So all the teachers used to have a lot of respect for her.

(03:19) And she said that Vikram want to be in everything other than studies. I was always average student but when it comes to sports, I'll be on the volleyball team, I'll be on basketball team. play cricket. Anything outdoor I'm there. Doing things which not just normal was always there with me.

(03:39) Jeremy Au: And you know what's interesting is that you went to university even though you are doing sports. Um, and what was the degree you chose for university?

(03:48) Vikram Sinha: And this is something which I'll always remember in life, you know, so, after doing my plus two, I've taken science as a background. You know, engineering college in India after completing my plus two from Bangalore. And then, my first semester of exams, two things happened. One, I realized I'm not enjoying it. So, one of the course was engineering drawing. So, you have to take all your equipment and all, and the professor will think, imagine. And my mind is going into some old imagination. While I was coming close to my first semester of exam, you know, my mother went through medical issues and I had to stay with her in the hospital.

(04:24) That is the time where I lost my mom and I was not able to give my first semester exam in the moment. we recovered and, I was with my dad and he was extremely supportive. And I told him like, look, I don't want to do engineering.

(04:36) I have to say, you know, parents. And that is why I believe if you are supported properly, you can do wonders. He said, no problem, Vikram, do what you want to do. And I said, I want to do Bachelor of Business Management.

(04:48) In India, growing up, if you are not engineer or if you're not doctor, or if you're not a civil servant, you are no one. And I chose something which was very unconventional, and my dad supported me. He said, perfect. We will support you what you want to do. So, I took a backseat. I went back to Bangalore, joined Business Management, I completed that and worked for three years, and then I did my MBA. It was very different from normal conventional doing engineering and then doing management. 

(05:19) Jeremy Au: Right. Wow, what a story! And it's interesting because, you know, I went back all the way in your LinkedIn profile, your first job was a trainee at Coca-Cola. why did you choose to work at Coca-Cola?

(05:29) Vikram Sinha: You know, this is very interesting that you figured it out. So, let me tell you how I got my first job. You know, I completed my Bachelor of Business Management and then when I was doing my internship in Bangalore, I joined a paging company.

(05:42) That time, Pager itself was being very cool, having a pager. Mobile was a big deal. So, when I came back after completing my BBM, and there was a lot of pressure on me to get into MBA immediately, and I was back home for my summer holidays and you know, one of my friends, he had a franchise of a mobile company and because of just having a kick of having a big mobile, you know, it's like you show off.

(06:09) So I said, look, I will join you for three months. I'm here. I've done the paging thing in Bangalore. I know what it is. He said, no worries. You have fun. And I was selling mobile. You know? And then I was applying for MBA in different places as part of selling mobile.

(06:23) The marketing head of Coca-Cola in Jodhpur. And during time, you know, Coca-Cola was getting launched in India. They were acquiring thumbs up. And, you know, that guy spotted me in one of the event, there was an event happening in that small town and I must be doing something.

(06:38) And he spotted me and I get a request Coca-Cola general manager marketing head want to meet to buy new connections and mobile. That place was 20 kilometers from where I was. I said, "do I need to go so far to sell this?" But then again, I was told, 'no, no, they want to see you and they wanna meet you. So, I drove my bike. I went there, I was selling connections, prepaid and postpaid mobile connections to them with a package. I never realized they're interviewing me for a job. 

(07:06) Jeremy Au: Oh, I wanna buy your product. 

(07:08) Vikram Sinha: So, at the end of that sales pitch, I got an offer and they said, why don't you join us? So I said, wow! And, and look, Coke, the brand, you know? Yeah. So, this was a turning point in my life. I still remember my bosses who gave me this opportunity, and I joined. But the hard thing was to convince my dad that I don't want to do MBA, oh, I wanna work for Coca-Cola. again, my dad supported me, you know he said, look, uh, I will not say no but you have to complete your MBA. That was my deal with my dad. So, I joined. 

(07:41) I joined them as trainee. Initially, I was sales trainee, and then immediately I was made marketing executive at a very young age. I did extremely well there. And then, you know, again, I met a HR head in Coke who was the leader management trainee who came in. And he had come from a MBA background, so he became a very good friend. He also told me that, Vikram, look, you must do your MBA. Close to two years, I applied and I got into IMI

(08:09) which is again, one of the premium institute. And then my family, my parents, my in-laws, everyone, you know, from my family's side from my mother's side, and all, they were very happy. I joined for my MBA, but the general manager of Coca-Cola, I still remember his name, Amit Bedi. He was very kind.

(08:25) He wrote a special note that, you know, we want to hire you back when you complete. But doesn't come. It's very selective. Which campus? They go for campus selection when they pick up young leader. While IMI was one of the, but was not coming there. But in my case, because of his recommendation after completing the offer back.

(08:45) Wow! So after completing, I joined Back again and I joined from an eastern part of India. I went to Western part of India. You know, I joined them as marketing manager. That is how, you know, my career started, you know. So, I got the opportunity to work with for two years, took a break, did my MBA, joined back again.

(09:05) Jeremy Au: Wow, amazing! And you know, I'm just kind of curious because you know, today we call Coca-Cola a multinational corporation. I mean, back then, it was just expanding to India to Southeast Asia. What was it like for you? Because, did you learn, do you remember any management lessons or did you have any good bosses that you learned from during this time at Coca-Cola?

(09:22) Vikram Sinha: Yes. I've been extremely lucky to work with good bosses. You know, what you learn while working is much more than what you learn in campus or universities. Some of the value system which I learned in Coca-Cola stays with me till date. You know, the number one was, at a very young age I was having marketing sponsorship budget and all. And my boss told me that, you know, how important is to do the right thing?

(09:47) You know, the money, what you are spending. You only know whether you are doing it right or you are not doing it properly. The value of making sure that treat every dollar as your own money. (10:00) Right. That upbringing got into me. Second, which is a real life example.

(10:05) All these big companies have a lot of audit rules and all. So, I used to do route riding. So you are in your truck, you have your loader, you have your driver, you have to sell everything. In peak summer temperature So what I saw, you know, when I was learning, my driver is getting into it and sometimes he will take the Pepsi bottle and carry it and replace it with coke bottle. Just to get the fear of that outlet.

(10:30) So, I saw him doing it. I thought I should also do next day. I also did the same thing just to make a point on one of the outlet. I said, okay, I will get these five cases. Don't worry if you don't have empty bottle, I'll take Pepsi bottle in return, I will give you Coke bottle.

(10:45) And everything I did, I wrote it on the piece of paper. After three weeks, get a call and everyone is like, what? What did you do? I said, what did I do? I don't know. Then there was auditor from Delhi and (11:00) Atlanta, and then they said you have picked up competition bottle and then, you know, this is, uh, grossly wrong. I said, yes, but I saw the loader and driver doing it. I did it for the benefit of the company. I think two thing happened. One, I think from a rule book. This was the game on the ground, but nobody documented. 

(11:20) Jeremy Au: Oh, okay. 

(11:20) Vikram Sinha: So I bring everything, you know, then it came as an evidence and all. But what saved me, I was honest. Yeah. You know, I was not trying to set it up. I was very honest with the auditor and with my seniors and they cautioned me. But key learning which I got is, if you make mistakes, also be honest and upfront. Right? Audit is not to catch you. Audit is to improve your mistake. So, there is a difference between mistake and integrity. So I think, I'll keep teaching all my employees, it is okay to make mistakes. So, don't mix mistakes with integrity. And because I was very honest, I was upfront, I was not hiding anything. It was categorized as mistake. If I would've tried to make up something and it would have been an integrity and I would've lost my job. 

(12:04) Jeremy Au: wow! That's such a powerful. Thanks for sharing about that mistake. And I think, I imagine so many junior people would have been like, oh, you know, 

(12:11) Vikram Sinha: You know, getting defensive, trying to make it up and then, you know, then it categorized as integrity, you are doing something which is not right.

(12:18) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And what's interesting is that, you know, you actually kind of like got your first set of like experience at Coca-Cola, et cetera. And then what's interesting is that you then move into telecom. So, I guess from pages to Coca-Cola, and back to telecom. So, why? What made you say like, I wanna go back into the, you know, kind of like the, you know, technology or the infrastructure space?

(12:37) Vikram Sinha: I think, uh, to your point, also taught me the power of distribution. You know? In especially large countries. I started my career India and things are at scale, the power of distribution. You know, we had to make sure we rotate our glasses in peak summer at least three, four times. So, you are not only selling something, you are bringing (13:00) your glasses back. Getting into the factory again, it is getting rebottle and going back. I learned the basics of distribution. Telecom was scaling up from a postpaid to a prepaid market. When you receive incoming call also, you have to pay the only 2G days. I still remember a call cost you some 40 cents. From that it was moving into a more affordable 

(13:24) So, you needed people with distribution background, senior people from companies like co- joined, and that is how I was pulled into it, the moment I got there. And then, when you start playing with technology, you know, how can you have a multiplier effect on the power of distribution? That has been my journey. Learning the basics of distribution of FMCG from Coke, bringing it industry on a prepaid market, scaling it up, and using technology to have a flywheel effect.

(13:55) Jeremy Au: So, how does the power of the distribution work? Because normally when people think about, (14:00) you know, they think about marketing, they think about sales, but distribution is not really I mean, everyone's like a lower tier than marketing or sales, right? So, explain distribution in the context of the telecom industry back in the early days. Like 2G, 3G.

(14:13) Vikram Sinha: Today also, if you ask me, the X factor is distribution. You know, I've been in Indonesia for six years. Worked in India, I've worked in Africa. You know, I've spent time in Kenya and Nigeria. So, I've worked in the market other than China which is more than 200 million population.

(14:30) One thing till today, I will tell you the X factor is distribution. Right. And I'll tell you why. So, you know, there is a rapid shift on online from offline. Online. Yes, it has a lot of value and we all have to do it. But want to get an X factor, to do hard thing, then it is offline. So, today we have close to 300,000 Mom- and- Pop shops.

(14:54) You know, they are your brand ambassador. You know, they feel selling you compared to other. and when you are doing it in parts of the world where, you know, even somebody who is a first time user, they don't go online. They go to the shop nearby and ask them which one to take, can you help me set it up?

(15:11) The shopkeeper will only be inclined where he's getting a better service. He'll be inclined which company he is getting better service, which company he feel that somebody will handhold me.

(15:22) So, it's all about distribution, giving direct service. When I went direct distribution was only of my total sale, you know, early 2019, you know, we used to do around 1.7, $1.8 billion revenue. And out of that, 85% was prepaid. So, it comes down to 1.5 billion. Only 15% was directly to retailer, rest all were through wholesaler. When I'm doing through wholesaler, I'm not giving them service,

(15:49) i'm just giving them delivery. Right. That we have shifted, now around 70% is direct. So, we have a journey, and this is the hard journey. And that is (16:00) where, as you said, people take it lower down but they don't realize. If you look at the journey, pre-merger, post merger.

(16:07) If one thing which has been a differentiator other than network, because network is a product. And second is offline distribution. You know how you are able to serve. It's a proven case where if you get your offline distribution right, you are able to serve the rural part and the urban part, top 10 cities better than

(16:28) anyone else. You are able to educate and it's not about just making more margin, it is about making sure the person who is selling your product, he's more confident on getting the right service, getting the right delivery on time. That itself makes a big difference. 

(16:44) Jeremy Au: And you know, what's interesting is that you are doing this distribution component, and you've done this, like you said, across multiple countries. Are there differences in distribution approaches in different countries? One, is it Africa, in India, in Indonesia? Are there differences or do you find that they're (17:00) more similar? 

(17:00) Vikram Sinha: There are differences, but one thing is very similar and common is what I told you that the further you go, the more important it is.

(17:10) You give timely service. So example, you know, when I was in Africa, I saw very high dependency on wholesaler. The problem statement was same, is going to outlet shops are 50, 60 kilometer away from the depot. And then they're giving it to wholesaler, and wholesaler is supplying for everyone.

(17:29) It is easy. But the moment you start serving everyone, so this is common. I think the difference is that, let me give you a contrast. Today, in Indonesia across FMCG category, what you get, say for example, in Jakarta, you get two GB data for 10,000. You go to Bogota, you might get it for 11. You go to a deep rural village, we call it Desa,

(17:53) it'll go to 13,000. Why is it happening? The guy sitting in Desa, he need to give (18:00) advanced payment to a wholesaler and then wait for his product to come. So, he's not able to rotate his money as fast as somebody in Jakarta. In Jakarta, he's getting service three times in a week. So he's selling.

(18:12) So, the market operating prices changes. People don't understand that a guy in rural deserve the same service, same price. So, this is what, you know, there are similarities. The challenges are much more in countries like Indonesia, in Nigeria compared to India. India, the FMCG distribution is much more evolved.

(18:32) Generally, the distribution setup is, you know, more cluster approach. You have a lot of small, small distributor, but some of these country, you have a master distributor, you have very big businessman, and then he will do a little bit of delivery themself and rest. They put it to wholesaler and other people who are just with a small margin. So, these are the unique differences but the challenge is same, you know, how do you solve the problem of giving a very good service to everyone? 

(18:59) Jeremy Au: Right. (19:00) And you know, what's interesting is that, you know, you mentioned, I think several technology ways that already happened, right? I mean, you know, it's like pages.

(19:07) Then it became voice 2G, obviously, 3G, 4G, and now at 5G, right? So, I'm just kind of curious, how do you see those technology changes? You know, 'cause you've been, you've been part of a telecom between 2G to 3G to 4G, and now 5G. Have you seen the telecom industry, or at least how have you seen it play out for these different generational changes?

(19:27) Vikram Sinha: Yes. I think I've been in the industry for two decades. You know, what 3G promise, got delivered on 4G. 4G was very simple. We all got into and it was so exciting. You know, first time something was transformative, you know, people from a fixed phone, you have a wireless phone, you know, cellular, you can move everywhere.

(19:46) Data era, you know, I still remember launching 3G. What 3G deliver? It'll deliver YouTube videos, WhatsApp call. So, I think the full potential of 3G, got delivered on 4G. And then I think, (20:00) 5G again, you know, not been able to unlock anything, which is a game changer.

(20:06) And personally, off late, I've been spending a lot of time on AI. I believe AI plus 5G which needs low latency can solve a lot of problems. Think of it all of us. If I can have a personal assistant as an agent who helps me on every step, a personal nurse who understand me and give me proactive guidance,

(20:27) every children will have a personal tutor as an agent, my two decade of learning in terms of all the evolution of G, we were too focused on speed, speed can do to a certain limit. But, yes. We saw a lot of things which not possible earlier. And that got started with 3G, but it completely got demonstrated on 4G. The 5G potential will get unlocked now which is AI plus 5G. AI will be a big blessing for 5G. And we can see that happening, especially with agent tech and agent space. Be a game changer. 

(20:59) Jeremy Au: (21:00) Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense because I was in Switzerland, Zurich, you know, I was just walking around the lake, I was like, you know what, I'll try talking to AI. And so, you know, ChatGPT hit the thing and then I had a conversation. I had my AirPods on and I wasn't talking to my wife, to the AI and you know, it was low latency, so it felt like a normal conversation actually, as if I was doing a phone call with a friend. And it was a beautiful scenery. So, I thought it was interesting to see that latency happen. 

(21:25) Vikram Sinha: No, you are right. You know, there are a lot of real use case, especially, you know, on things like health education. Again, early days, you know, but it'll be transformative. It is something leveler. And also it is a game changer. 

(21:39) Jeremy Au: Right. I think what's interesting is that, you know, when we talk about AI, obviously, we're talking about, you know, like you said, internet speed latency, volume of data, you know, is it free or unlimited or five gigabytes or whatever it is. And there's also a big debate about the infrastructure needed to invest in it.

(21:55) Right. Um, and I think, right now, there's a lot of debate about are we over investing too much. (22:00) Are we under investing for it? Right? So, I was laughing a bit because I feel like this argument, I still remember the newspaper articles for 2G is, you know, are we over investing or under investing 3G?

(22:11) always that debate, I think all the time about what is the right amount of infrastructure to build out for the upcoming revolution. Right. You know, so I'm just kind of curious, you know, you must have been part of those decisions, like how much to, invest in two G, how much invest in 3G? How, how do you think about it now? Like what were some of the experiences you had in like, I don't know, upgrading from two G to 3G or 3G to 4G? Those were the decisions you had make. Yeah. 

(22:34) Vikram Sinha: I think you are asking a very good question. I must say this, you know, being in telecom industry for two decade, telecom is very CapEx intensive. Right. Today, you know, in last three years, I've invested $2.5 billion as capital expenditure. Wow! You know, which is 23 to 25% of my revenue. You'll not see any industry which is so CapEx intensive. Generally, when we write our business case, we write on an IRR of 20%, (23:00) 22%. The reality is 70% of the telecom, globally, even meet the ROIC around nine, 10%. Not even more than 12, 13%. The point which I'm trying to make is people like me who have been in the industry for too long, we are comfortable doing known things. Whatever is the outcome, because that is the playbook. You know, we are very comfortable spending what we know. Right. But we are not comfortable spending in new technologies innovation. So, this is one part of the story. And that is why telecoms have struggled, globally. I think AI is a real opportunity to pivot because AI is a leveler for everyone.

(23:39) Right. And for AI, you don't have. If you are doing a foundation model, also, like LLM, there is a lot of noise whether countries, companies would build LLM or we leave it to some of the big, big companies from US and we just consume in services or on infrastructure, you know? I think in need of the hours every country need to (24:00) have sovereign infrastructure. So, what does that mean? It has to be credible companies in the country who build that sovereign infrastructure. The most important resource is your data.

(24:10) So, with all these background, you know, when I took my first bet into investing on infrastructure at Indosat AI factories. Lintasatar which is my subsidiary, we started with $200 million bet. Last year in August, we got the first bunch of H100. Again, I was very supported with my shareholder. You know, so this is something new to them. Right. But the reality is we don't know. Fast forward six to seven months, I think, it has been a great learning.

(24:39) Today, have moved from H100 to B200. Now we are talking GB200. Innovation is very fast. What is important is you write the business case with keeping in mind what can go wrong over promise but not taking pledge is not an answer. Not doing is not an answer. So, we have gone full (25:00) stack. We want to create factory which is the infrastructure layer, but we don't want to stop there. We want to have the end solution otherwise, we'll again become a pipe. What happened with telecom will happen again. Right. So we wanna make sure we create LPs, we create partnership.

(25:16) You can't do it alone. But you need to deal with partner who is fair to you and who is fair to the country where you are operating. So, I think that is the journey. And AI is all about ecosystem play. And again, around a week back, I was in Las Vegas with a lot of leaders. The joke in the room is AI is everywhere other than p and l.

(25:36) But the reality is, it made me nervous because this is where we started, but when we ended. I saw companies who have started early, they've started seeing the value on the also. So, I think, countries, companies have to be on the forefront, you can't be a follower, then it is a real pivot opportunity. Personally, you know, we are very much committed and invested on this. I started seeing good results.

(25:59) Jeremy Au: I'm (26:00) curious because, you know, for a lot of industries, you know, agriculture for example, the pace of change is a bit linear.

(26:06) Right. And there's physical reality, whereas, technology feels like more a, you know, curve. I think telecom is like that interesting mix of both where you have set up real towers, yeah, infrastructure above course is technology. So, yeah. That, you know, bridge between physical world and a digital world is so key.

(26:20) I'm just kind of curious, but is it worse to take too aggressive a bet and have it fail? Or is it worse to have it too conservative a bet of the technology change and under invest? 

(26:31) Vikram Sinha: I think, it is better to take a plunge and fail than not do anything. Not doing anything is a bigger risk. Your chance of success. Not doing technology is real. Yeah. These shifts are real. Right. So, it is better take a plunge And fail than sit and not do anything.

(26:49) Jeremy Au: But the, no, I mean I was just kind of curious. And you know, I think one thing you also mentioned as well is that, you know, one of the challenges for telecoms is this end up being a pipe.

(26:56) Right. And a pipe between, they lay the pipe in the real world and then this end (27:00) up being a pipe between the ecosystem. So, and I think we've seen a lot of telcos. You know, make that decision. Some have focused to become, let's focus on a pipe strategy, more of a commodity, you know, margins play and others have tried to enrich, like you said, ecosystem and so forth.

(27:14) I'm not saying there's right or wrong, but I'm just kind of curious, like what's your approach or framework of how to think about it? Yeah. 

(27:19) Vikram Sinha: Well, as you rightly said, there is no right or wrong. Yeah. You can be a pipe and you can run a pipe at a very low cost and make margin out of it. Right. That can be one approach, and I really like what you said.

(27:29) There is no right or wrong answer. I think important thing I want to highlight. Again, being in the industry for two decades, you know, we, we have been too good on blaming others. We kept blaming regulator, we kept blaming OTT players. but the reality is we were too arrogant. We had customer, but we were never trying to give a real marvelous experience. More these e-commerce companies have given is at least they have been very focused on customer experience. Right. We had always relationship with customer, but we had (28:00) issues around roaming bath, you know?

(28:02) These are self inflective pain. So, I think my first learning has been to focus on giving a, it's a big deal to have with customer. How can we give them marvelous experience? Right. We don't have to blame anyone. We have to really focus on what they want and do it. Right. You know, this is one second.

(28:19) I think, as you rightly said, we have to make our choices. You want to be a pipe and make margin out of that pipe, right. Your business case. But make sure that you know, your R OICs , all more than, at least your cost of capital, so that you are doing a, a business which you know, people believe in and with believe in your shareholder believe in, and they say return.

(28:40) The other thing is Covid was the first time, you know, the respect of telco industry was coming back. You know, if I go back to 2016, '17, if you look at GSMA report, telco was rated below tobacco after investing. have been a bit self-inflicted because of our vast issues, roaming issues.

(28:59) You (29:00) know, people lost trust on us. Yeah. I think during covid they realized how important is telco? How important is core connectivity? Whether you wanna work from home, whether you want to study from home, or even getting entertained. So, I think for me personally, that was a pivot moment, you know?

(29:16) And after that. ChatGPT moment happened and then people started understanding AI. AI is now, it has been there. But it came on the forefront. So, it is very well timed for telco. And for companies like us, and immediately after Covid, you know, we said, let's pledge into AI, let's, let's get whether it is 4G or 5G, what is important is what problem you are solving with the technology and how you are solving it at scale.

(29:43) So, I think that mindset and with now AI on the forefront, you will see few telcos will be a force to reckon with. Hope was not there pre covid. Most of the telcos were struggling. I'm a big fan of T-Mobile US. you know, now,

(29:58) people of (30:00) experience trust, and also when there are crisis, look up to, you know, how you are managing and how you are supporting the community. I think that is very exciting and that is where, you know, I get lot of support from my employee when I say that our larger purpose is to empower every Indonesian.

(30:15) Our larger purpose is help Indonesia be the shaper, not just be a taker. so that is the journey which we are working now.

(30:23) Jeremy Au: And we talk about how is, you know, obviously technology benefits every Indonesian, you know, I think that concerns by people about, you know, the pace of change and it tends, technology tends to trickle from the top right.

(30:35) Or the rich or the people who are well connected to the rest, right? and you've given an example of companies. Some companies are early adopters, and now it's showing up in their p and l, but it takes time for it to happen. Right. So what do you think about that dynamic where people are concerned about, would AI, is it only for people who have fast internet and so forth? How would you address that? 

(30:56) Vikram Sinha: I think there are two parts to it. One side, investor (31:00) shareholders are curious, as you rightly said, where is the value? Is it hype or is it personal learning? And this is me my personal capacity, I think it is real. First, you have to do it right.

(31:12) And if you don't know, the good thing is you can ask AI. for companies like us, it is important we have the right design principle. We do it top down. These are not, or commercial mandate, these are leadership mandate. The CEO, the board, and the management team need to commit.

(31:29) You know, this starts with that. And if you do it right, you will start seeing value. you don't see value, then it'll be like, is it a.com bubble or is it, metaverse think AI is beyond that. It is just that you have to get into it, do it top down and get your people along.

(31:45) the I'm seeing is will AI replace jobs there more damaging use cases than productive use cases. These are the two real, need to be addressed. My personal learning is. (32:00) Spending time with some of the best mind in the world, whether it is consulting, tech company.

(32:04) I think 10% is tool, 20% is platform. Still 70% is people. You have to do all this shift, technology shift and now we are talking AI mindset. It with the growth mindset, you have to get your people along. Invest your people. Let me give you an example of call center. You know, there is a lot of noise AI will replace call center agent. The reality is still today. Also, you look at any call center at scale, attrition every year. Why do people resign? Because they don't like doing that job and nobody want to be in that job forever.

(32:38) So how can you make some of these more interesting jobs available? You know, when you work with growth mindset, you are able to invest it in the company and you create more opportunities. So I think that is where things are going. So we have to address the people concern.

(32:53) We have to get people along. And I think companies who are successful, they are investing equally on (33:00) people. Number one. Number two, you know, responsible ai, it is our collective responsibility we stay ahead of the curve as a CEO. The biggest risk, I see is cyber attacks.

(33:12) And with connectivity, with AI comes all these risks. been amazed, you know, the fake calls, the spam, which is happening so bad actor using ai, if they are more. Advanced than good actor. It'll be an imbalance. So I think again, it is in our interest that how do we have more good actor using this technology for solving real problem?

(33:33) Jeremy Au: Think the. Scam and spam issue is really horrendous. And I think there's such a interesting piece where, I mean, Singapore, we literally had multiple episodes like from the director of like, you know, gov tech is very much saying like, Singapore is getting scammed. It's a target for so many people in the region.

(33:51) And I'm just kind of curious like, what do you think about it is it happening? What does it seem to be more of it rather than less of it? Yeah. 

(33:59) Vikram Sinha: Yes. (34:00) Because the bad actors is using more and adapter, so I will not name it. Yeah. But I know in Singapore, yeah. Some of my friends who are at very senior level, very well educated, they have been scanned by 40, $50,000.

(34:13) Oh boy. So. The time when I did my voice, I did a contract. You know, fake voice. You know, you can hear my, my wife will not be able to recognize whether it is me or someone else. Yeah. So these things are reality. Yeah. how do we focus on more responsible ai? How do we focus on making sure, it is again, that virus and antivirus game, How do we make sure that the whole ecosystem in this on making sure that we are ahead of the game, all these things will happen. So today, you know, when I say in Indonesia, AI for all, Hmm. One of my focuses is, by July, August, I want to launch that all my a hundred million customers are. Protected by AI powered solution so that if any scam call, he should (35:00) get notified before it happened.

(35:01) If somebody can scam you, there are technologies to protect you. Our job is to stay ahead of the curve. We need to do whatever we can to make sure these bad actors are not to scale up.

(35:13) I think there are more policies framework which will come, but directionally, you know. Policies should enable innovation. It should not curtail innovation. These are directional things, responsible AI is very important. We need to be all working together on making sure, and coming back to your point on scam and spam, you not believe they are so targeted. They are targeting elderly people. they're targeting women because they're more empathetic, you know? and the scale is horrifying. I think, it is our collective responsibility to make sure we protect our customer. technology to ensure that they are safe, they're protected. More ai, the more all these scam and risk security. So it is extremely important that we stay ahead of the curve. 

(35:58) Jeremy Au: And you know, what's interesting is (36:00) that, you know, you've talked about, you know, AI for all Indonesians. How do you see that cascade? Because you've seen technology cascade, right?

(36:07) I mean, last time only the rich and powerful I remember back when it was a status symbol and people were proudly wearing on the belt, and there's a leather wallet and it web pager, right? Then obviously everybody got pager. Then it was the first phone, you know, then it was the Nokia, it became the Blackberry.

(36:24) then it became the iPhone. So obviously it takes time to trickle and you know, now everybody who wants a smartphone can get a smartphone. But how do you think this AI thing, how do you think it would, you know, spread, you know, across the whole population from your perspective, based on your experience with past technology waves?

(36:40) Vikram Sinha: So piece of innovation is 10 x now. So, to give you some example, first time when App Store was launched. Mm, I think it was whether you looked at Apple or Google, it started with few million customer. And it took some time to scale up Chat GBT got launched. You know, it started with (37:00) a different scale and scale up is 10 x.

(37:02) Yeah. So I think the first key learning I have is the pace of innovation is You know, what happened in a decade is happening in two year now. Right? 

(37:11) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(37:12) Vikram Sinha: This is one second. I think, especially, you know, you made a very good point again, because I was in US week. The maximum impact of AI has been on health.

(37:22) But again, it is confined to top 10 cities. These Mayo Hospital in New York, or other names which came up. benefiting the, hmm. 5%, the rich people. Personally, I feel that it'll scale up very soon because the cost of compute and innovation. What was not possible earlier is possible now.

(37:43) I always keep telling that you can be in one of the rural place. You don't have to be in Singapore, you can be in Tarakan or in Jakarta, and get the same education, what is happening at Harvard. Earlier it was not possible.

(37:58) Yeah. Similarly on (38:00) health, at least on early reduction. You know, today in Indonesia, a lot of people in rural suffer, whether they have a dengue or There are not enough doctor trained nurses. You know, if you get to know early and if it is right. Then you get treatment properly. All these things. I think we are also working with partners how to bring it at scale. It'll take some time, but there's a lot of work happening. You know, for, scale up to happen fast. And when I see what has happened in last three, four years i'm very confident that it'll benefit. It'll benefit all humans. 

(38:34) Jeremy Au: And you know, I'm just curious because, you know, you've, interesting mix of both like, um, and cross country, and also you've seen different technology waves.

(38:43) Um, I. I'm just kind of curious, like you, for the AI wave, do you, and compare that with the excitement they had for 5G compared to the excitement they had for 4G and 3G. you like, I don't know, get like. Like, are you like excited every five years for a new revolution or is it like, you know, you (39:00) feel Yeah, I'm just kind of, kind of curious.

(39:01) Vikram Sinha: So one thing I will call it out. AI is not about G, 3G, 4G, 5G. This was happening every three year and this was all being created right? By vendor ecosystem. They have to sell something. You have to compare AI with when STEAM engine was introduced, when internet was introduced.

(39:18) This is what AI is for you. AI is not one of bgs, which have come for three years. compare AI with all these telco, you know? it is very transformative. I think the right way to compare, think of it when Steam engine was invented. Think of it when internet, the art of possibilities goes to a different level. That is what AI for us. 

(39:38) Jeremy Au: Let's talk about that. I guess science fiction future, right? Because, you know, I always tell people, I was like, when the internet was invented, nobody ever thought there would be ordering, shoes on e-commerce. You know, I mean, back when, you know, internet was first invented versus people, buying McDonald's online, you know, for delivery.

(39:55) So it's like, you know, a huge difference. Right. So, AI was invented over the past few years. When you look, 20, (40:00) 30 years down the road, what do you think AI gonna become? Is it like super intelligence, you think how do you think, that 20 to 30 years out looks like for you?

(40:07) Vikram Sinha: I think, AI will be very transformative. It'll help countries on their GDP growth. You know, whether you look at, education and the most important thing is education today. Same is on agriculture. You know, I come from, emerging countries, emerging economies, so I speak more on real challenges. Same is on health. So I think AI will have a very transformative impact. It'll benefit everyone. The other thing is, you know, aging population, the world is having this challenge.

(40:35) So having agent robotics, these are all, I can see the vision. I think we have to look at AI with a positive outlook. And then we can see how AI can benefit all, how AI can help in today's world when we are going through a lot of challenges, how we can bring more good news, how we can help people live better. How we can bring happiness and joy, how (41:00) we can help. money in the circular economy. I think there to be more and more people working with this constructive mindset. With the ecosystem mindset. 

(41:08) Jeremy Au: What's interesting is that, you know, there's, you know, like the, you know, people who are very focused on, super abundance, prosperity.

(41:15) If everyone will get a universal basic income one day, and then there's a bunch of, like you said, doomers, you know Yeah. Will kill us, Skynet, you know, so I'm just kind of curious, how would you think we should like, you know, think about that or Yeah,

(41:28) Vikram Sinha: you know, every technology comes with more and more responsibility, and AI is very powerful. The way data is getting trained, the way the cost of training is coming down with all these innovation, deep seek and Gemini new model charge, GBT, you know, We have to be responsible. There are bad actors who can, but I think the way to go is, a more optimistic and more.

(41:51) Positive outlook towards working together. One of the rule of AI is, no one person, one company can do (42:00) everything. It is about a very collaborative approach of bringing a kind of an ecosystem Which is solving problem. And in my case, I always focus on solving problem at scale. So, I'm a bit biased because, sometime my friends told me that I'm a born optimistic.

(42:17) I always urge towards, more optimistic outlook. But I don't discount, the challenges and concern and regulation, but we have to solve that. 

(42:27) Jeremy Au: And I'm just curious because, you know, when you look at your work, you've obviously been so focused on technology and growth and being a CEO and across different country, and I also understand you yourself, a personal life as well. So how do you balance, both 

(42:39) Vikram Sinha: PS. I know, my wife, I have two kids, both teenager. So they have been very supportive, you know, having said that, you can only do this if you are very passionate about what you are doing, and you get very well supported by your family. I don't believe in work life balance.

(42:54) It is all interlinked. It is just that you have to prioritize your time. You have to make sure (43:00) that, you know, you don't miss out, living a life of a CEO, you miss out a life of a childhood. You know, what I want to be versus what I am getting portrayed is very different. But I have to live a life of a listed company, CEO, the biggest support and.

(43:14) Emotional cushion is your family, your wife, your children. So at least I have blocked my calendar. Two holidays in a year come what week? know, we do at least every Saturday. I wanna make sure that, we go out dinner together. I often, I've been traveling a lot. I've been on the road for 15, 18 days.

(43:32) But, I do it because I'm very passionate and I know I'm working for a purpose. The other big support is your team. You need to have people around you who really bring a lot of positive intent, and you also need to have people around you who are better than you. So that mindset has helped me. Always surround yourself with people who are better than you. 

(43:52) Jeremy Au: Yeah. Amazing. And, you know, could you share a personal story about time that you have been brave? 

(43:59) Vikram Sinha: Personally, (44:00) you know, the brave reason which I took was to take the assignment of a merger. Because the moment I was told, while I was excited, but when I spoke a few of my close friends, everyone told me that it is a recipe for disaster.

(44:14) Most of the CEOs who have taken this, they lose their job in 12 to 18 months. Maximum two year, because telco mergers, if you go back to history, close to a hundred percent was failure. Yeah. There was not any example. that is what I started in 2022. my shareholder supported me, my family supported me and my team.

(44:32) You know, I have to say now we have become a. We looked at each other, you know, as management team, it has been three years now and we said we have two choice. One to become history. Two to create history. Let's, let's work towards creating history. So it's mind over matter. We started with that mindset and the end result is when we started, everyone fetch Moody, everyone rated us negative watch list.

(44:57) And I don't blame them because we work on historical (45:00) data. First year they put us neutral, second year positive, third year double A plus. So that was, that was a big bet because, before that I've been consistently doing well and, uh. That fear of failure was there. 

(45:12) Jeremy Au: You know, 

(45:13) Vikram Sinha: that, at the end of the day, as professional, what you have is just your reputation.

(45:17) And then you don't want to be in the industry signed off that you did a failure. But when you do it with conviction, when you do it with right people around you, with the right support ecosystem, magic happens. 

(45:30) Jeremy Au: So for myself, I've been a consultant at Bain and I've done and worked with two and a processors. So, the truth, like you said, is most of them fail, statistically It's true. So I'm curious, from your perspective, what did you do that you think, you know, success? Was it luck? Was it something you did? Was the team like, but what would you say are the things, because like you said, statistically. Mostly likely a, a fail for most m and a. 

(45:53) Vikram Sinha: Yeah, yeah. No, I think I have been asked this question a few times now. Because we have become a playbook. In fact, (46:00) people from uk, they were there in our office, a few weeks back. we started with a certain set of guiding principle, and number one was, you know, let's look at merger with a growth mindset.

(46:10) Of the mergers are driven on optimize because there are synergy value. You are speaking to investor analyst, and they only track you on how much you are saving. You know how much cost you are cutting it out. I think that is extremely important because that is real, that is tangible. But when you deal with your employees, when you deal with a larger mission, what.

(46:31) Really energy is maximize, you know, so this is the first guiding principle which helped us. The second thing which helped us is Indosat is a very iconic brand. You know, brand in the Indonesia to connect Indonesia to the world 57 year back. people have a lot of expectation.

(46:48) You know, I worked with Coke, I started my career. I understand the power of brand and. We anchored everything on the larger purpose and we were honest. It is not just communication (47:00) strategy. I picked it up early during my first a hundred day I was going to visit people on field what excite people is not selling recharge or enterprise solution.

(47:11) What excite them is if they are doing something for the country, right? So our whole merger was anchored around larger purpose, how we are empowering Indonesia, how we are helping the country, whatever we can.

(47:23) So it to the larger purpose. Second, I think experience, is paramount. You know, on the merger, customer don't care. What matters to them is how you are. Giving them better experience and giving value for money. They don't want cheap product. Because telco products in countries like Indonesia is sub $3 so, and the kind of work which you do is very productive. It is not consumption, it is primary. Even a Gojek driver, if you wanna make money, he need to be connected. Or somebody in, even farmer, you know, a lot of things, which he do. And what he spend is 40, 50,000 rupiah. (48:00) And what he do is much, much more important. So he need a reliable, good service, which he can trust, which he can be productive in his work. So I think experience, these are the three things which we really focused on and it paid off. 

(48:14) Jeremy Au: Yeah. and you know, you said that you were scared, right? You had fear because your friends was telling you. Not a good idea. You might lose your job, but I'm just kind of curious, how do you take care of that fear? Do you go for running? Do you meditate? I'm just kind of curious, how do you, you know, go through that? 

(48:29) Vikram Sinha: Because, I mean, the CEO job is a stressful job. Yes. So fear of failure was not only losing jobs financially, but losing all your reputation. At the end of the day, you know, you are up.

(48:40) So the whole world write for it. Yeah. And I've had experience where some of my CEO friend when they had to step down how media wrote, how in, you know, so it impacts their family, their children. It's not an easy job. people find, look at the glamorous side of it. So the point which I'm making is, fear was real.

(48:59) The (49:00) important thing is you don't look back once you decide, you know, you don't look back. Yes. What you said is very important. How do you manage, daily basis? What has helped me? I attended, uh. Course, you know, which was done by, a lady called, I'm not remembering her name. It was Egon Zehnder.

(49:17) And that lady, she wrote a book winning from Within. So the biggest learning which I got there, was to let go. on what is in your control, what you don't control. rotate yourself on that. So I've been trying to master the art of let go. And then really focus on what is in your control.

(49:35) And that is what I keep telling our team. And once you give your best, you just enjoy your journey, you know, it is extremely important to enjoy the journey. When you are doing hard things, you need to enjoy it properly. 

(49:46) Jeremy Au: Thank you so much. On that note, I'd love to kind of like summarize the three big takeaways. First of all, thanks so much for sharing about your early university. You are an athlete and competitor, who tried computer science and engineering, and then you changed to business management, and that was fascinating here about your early career at Coca-Cola and what you learned from your bosses there, and even your mistakes that you've made.

(50:08) So thank you so much for being so open about that. Secondly, thanks so much for sharing about, you know, why you're excited about ai and I think using that historical lens of looking at G, 3G, 4G, 5G, and like you said, you, you think actually that AI is, you know, and revolution, like the industrial revolution, the steam engine.

(50:24) So it's a different plane, but I thought it was just interesting to see some of the parallels and some of the dynamics between. investments versus over investments versus other investments. So, really fascinating there. And lastly, thanks so much for sharing about, your own experience as a CEO leader about, you know, obviously leading into thinking about, um, sovereignty, but also thinking about how to make AI accessible for all.

(50:46) So on that note, thank you so much for sharing. 

(50:48) Vikram Sinha: Thank you so much.