Charlotte Trudgill: Career Epiphanies, Navigating Culture Shocks & Self Regulation - E205

· Purpose,Founder,Women,Thailand,Podcast Episodes English

I feel that now I have to take a first step every day. Building a startup from zero to one. Every day is the first step. Being brave everyday to battle everything that comes my way from my own doubts and fears and fear of failure to external doubts and validations and invalidations. There’s just a mix of things that happen in one day in the life of a very early stage startup founder that, mentally, I have to be prepared every day when I wake up and I drink my coffee. OK, whatever comes. We’re going to fight it. We’re going to figure it out.- Charlotte Trudgill

Charlotte is the co-founder and CEO of Jackett, a Singaporean edtech startup - building an operating system for personalised assessments. She grew up in Phuket, graduated Law from London, built a career at Meta and Grab, worked across eight countries in APAC, and is on a mission to make personalized education universally accessible with AI and automation. Jackett is present across eight countries in South Asia, SEA and Africa regions.

Jeremy Au: (00:30)
Hey, Charlotte, welcome to the BRAVE podcast.

Charlotte Trudgill: (00:33)
Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Au: (00:34)
I’m really excited to share your story because you’re so passionate about education and emerging markets, especially Southeast Asia. I think you have an incredible story to share and I’m happy to help share that with the world.

Charlotte Trudgill: (00:47)
Thanks for creating this platform and giving me this opportunit, I’m really excited.

Jeremy Au: (00:51)
Charlotte, for those who don’t know you yet, could you introduce a little about yourself?

Charlotte Trudgill: (00:57)
Sure, I’m half Thai, half English. I grew up in Phuket so I grew up in an island off an island and I’m still living on an island now in Singapore. I was homeschooled for most of my childhood up until I was 12 and we had a commune with other families and teachers. That was fun. Then I went through the Thai education system for a few years and then my parents were able to gather what little we had at the time to finance my International School education, which opened a lot of amazing doors for me. Then I wanted to go to university in London and study law and, again, my parents sold whatever we had left to finance that and so education has been something that has been a big theme throughout my life which resonates with many people that it creates amazing opportunities and it’s not an opportunity that my parents had growing up, so neither of them, you know, finished secondary school education. For them, it was extremely important that I got my degree and I was able to be in the system and get a job and really become that stable pillar for the family which I am still today and I take that responsibility very seriously. Since I was a kid, I wanted to change the status quo. I remember just being very curious about why things were the way they were. Why were women given a certain role in the household and in society? Why did certain people have opportunities that others didn’t, and that started from when I was about 10? I started asking these questions that nobody could answer and even if they did answer I was very unhappy with the answers and I always thought why is it this way and I’m still like that. Which is why I founded Jackett and my educational tech startup and I’m still on that mission to change the status quo why things are the way they are and so that sort of evolved into my career where I wanted to start in development. I wanted to work along the Sustainable Development Goals. I wanted to work for the UN and NGO’s and really change the system from within. I had this mindset of trying to drive change. Within an existing infrastructure that I didn’t agree with and then that shifted to how can I drive transformation that is completely different and innovative and I wanted to do that through building a startup and that’s when after I finished law school I went into my first job which was an intellectual property law because I couldn't afford to do human rights law and be a barrister at the time. So I went into corporate and intellectual property was really interesting because that was the innovative part of law. It was constantly evolving and it was really on the fringe and that really excited me. So I went into being a patent consultant. And I was registering patents and thinking I actually want to be the person on the patent. I want to be the person innovating. I want to be the person driving transformation in the status quo, not facilitating it. So I thought OK, that means I have to build a startup. I started to do research about it and I put a check list together I need a venture backable profile and exposure to working in a startup. I need probably some management or leadership experience and I need to know what exactly I wanted to change about the role and for that, at the time, was education and it still is today. I took my first step to work at Grab. I had no idea what I was doing. I went from Ivy Law to strategy in supply and operations at Grab and I remember my hiring manager. In the interview he said OK, so I’m gonna give you an assignment. You have to build a revenue and cost model and a unit economics model and you have to forecast how the cars will be financed and over time. And I had no idea what any of this meant, so I asked my friend to build the entire thing for me, explained to me, cell by cell what everything was and how it worked and what is an assumption and how do you come up with it. I started doing customer development with the Grab drivers to understand all of the assumptions behind the price of the gas, overtime and fill all that into the model got the job and figured it out from there. That’s pretty much been my entire career just figuring new things out and building these projects and rallying people around it. That’s when I started to build the skill set that I knew I needed to be a startup founder and then I thought, OK, so I need management and leadership experience and venture backable profile that looks like big…Facebook? I remember applying through the Facebook websites and completely forgetting about my application and when I got an email from Facebook HR. I thought it was spam, so when I took the interview again had no idea this was a role in account management for advertising sales and I had never run a Facebook campaign in my life. So welcome to the interview. Not only do I have to interview for being now in advertising and sales, which I had never done, but I also had to do it in Thai. So my hiring manager at Facebook, she was a little evil. She saw that I put Thai as my first language on my CV. So we conduct the whole interview in Thai. And so my journey, I think to sum it up would be insatiable curiosity to figure out new things and build them and scale them and drive impact wherever I am. And I really wanted to do that for something that I truly cared about which is education. That’s what I’m doing now with Jackett.

Jeremy Au: (06:59)
Wow, what a journey. What was it like growing up in Phuket?

Charlotte Trudgill: (07:10)
It was really fun. I think as a kid you’re a 10 minute walk away from the beach and surfing and diving and sailing and you’re really connected with nature and completely disconnected from the outside world. It’s like growing up with rose coloured glasses. The world is kind of beautiful and perfect, and in that state. It was nice living in that bubble. But I always felt like I was meant to be doing something that mattered to more people. That’s when I knew I had to leave the island and go to the opposite end of the spectrum and moved to London. So that transition, I think was it was a very dramatic learning curve to go from butterflies and rainbows to London, and I think growing up in Phuket really gave me the values of being connected with community. And that’s something that when I was living in a big city, I didn’t have and I really was craving to build that. In Phuket there were always people that were helping each other out, understanding each other’s needs and supporting each other and building such a community. So there was no sense of gender bias, age bias. What religion? What nationality are you? There was nothing like this for me growing up, but then when I moved to London and other cities. I started to understand how these biases were affecting me and the people around me. And how to manage them? One of the challenges I had faced, especially after leaving Phuket and trying to do the things that I wanted to do in London. And what I’m doing now is the gender and age bias that consciously or unconsciously people have towards not just me but each other. And trying to fight that aggressively internally not to feel a certain way when someone has a bias against you and try to manage it gracefully externally. So there were situations where I would be in a meeting room with male colleague who is in the same position. We make the same decisions completely equal within my company, but externally when I left the meeting room or serious discussions about the deal needed to be made or negotiation needed to happen, the attentions always went to him. So I would be asked to leave the room or they would speak directly to him, and at first I felt very angry ‘cause I had never experienced anything like this before and I thought the people around me don’t do that. So why do other people do it? And I was trying so much to understand the psychology behind it and how to change it and it just made me more and more angry. Then I realized that this is something that, even if it’s unconscious, it’s difficult to change, so I had to adapt towards it and even sometimes use it to my advantage. So if I knew that there was a deal that needed to be closed in a meeting, and I knew that my male colleague would probably appeal more to the audience, we’d send him in. I think accepting things, the way they are in certain situations and, on the other side, changing them where you can, so simultaneously I was running these women in tech events and building communities around women founders and female entrepreneurs and tech ladies learning how to code, trying to change it in a different way, that’s been a really important learning for me coming out of that bubble and being exposed to very diverse way of doing things.

Jeremy Au: (11:07)
You’re in London and learning law. There’s two parts to that decision – continuing to do law and returning to Southeast Asia. Let’s talk about the geographic side first. You made the decision to return to Southeast Asia. What was that decision like for you?

Charlotte Trudgill: (11:31)
That was a difficult head and heart kind of decision because being in London made sense in terms of financial opportunity, career opportunity, I’d spent all these years studying law and you always going to get a good salary there. It provided that safety net and stability that my family and I never had. My parents were entrepreneurs. They were forced to be. We never had this certainty of the next paycheck and things like that. I had this opportunity to create that, but I knew my intuition was telling me that this was not that moment. I was very disconnected with my environment in London I think because I had grown up in such a global and open community. I was craving that and I was really...I was really missing Asia. I think to put it very, very simply. So I decided I was going to take a year off but I ended up just working anyway. I don’t think I’ve ever taken a year. Since I was, yeah, since I was 16, I’ve been working internships here and there and inside job. So when I moved to Thailand I remember I did an internship in law and I thought OK, well if I’m not going to be a lawyer in London I might as well just try in Thailand. The adjustment of trying to practice law in English versus in Thai was, I think, the hardest part of that transition and going from I think I know a lot about law to I know absolutely nothing because this is a different legal system. So that was a difficult transition, but it wasn’t the same as going from Phuket to London I think that was more dramatic. I think it was just more the feeling of coming home and building and creating something that’s going to matter to my community and where I’m from, and I’m very passionate about driving transformation in emerging markets because you’re from here. You can see the inequities and how things have been this way for a very, very long time and they haven’t changed and I really wanted to be the one to drive some kind of transformation in these emerging markets, and I think the role that I had at Facebook in traveling across Pakistan and Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India, Myanmar, Cambodia, Lao and we were even looking at other markets. It was the diversity but also the fragmentation and the complexity of working in those markets as well was really exciting to me but I also started to understand the array and diversity of problems that it had as well.

Jeremy Au: (14:13)
There’s the culture shock of moving to London and the reverse culture shock of coming back to Thailand and Southeast Asia. Parents dream of sending their kids outside Southeast Asia to study – America, Europe. At the end of the day, it’s the child’s decision which geography they want to build their career. If you could do it all over again, what advice would you have given yourself in terms of how to think through the geographic decision and career path.

Charlotte Trudgill: (15:05)
If I could go back to talk to my 16/17 year old self when I was making that decision, to do more research, but that wouldn’t even be the right advice because at the time we had had all this information at my fingertips, but I didn’t know what were the different opportunities that were out there for me and I think this wasn’t just my challenge, but also my friends and the current generation is that current education system is not catering for the needs of the job market that exists today and in 10 years in the future, the skills that I have today were not skills that I even knew I needed when I was in school. Things like entrepreneurship courses and tinkering with robotics or learning how to code; all the things of learning by doing. They weren’t a part of my school, it was still a lot of regurgitating information, even that information being available now, people are still making decisions thinking about that traditional linear path to success to growth to a good stable career. There are alternative ways of doing things, and I think that’s what I love about your podcast is you’re highlighting alternative journeys and paths to success and growth. I would tell my 16 year old self just to explore for a year and do five or six different jobs. I’d say list down 5 jobs that you find remotely interesting that you think you want to do and just work there for free for two weeks and write down your learnings and then consolidate and think about what you really want to do and what skills you want to build. Because at the time it was just like the professions that were already existing and now with startups and new roles coming up like even at Facebook, the role that I had at Facebook didn’t exist a few years before that. So how do we prepare ourselves and our kids and the current generation for jobs that are not even going to exist today? They’re gonna be skill based and I was very fortunate to go to International School where there were frameworks around how to learn, how to solve problems, how to assess, evaluate, analyze, source new information, build the perspective, and that's something that the traditional education system that I’ve gone through before that didn’t have and didn’t prepare me for it. So I’m very fortunate that I had that four year window to build that mindset and those mental frameworks to then adapt them to the world that I had to face when I left school.

Jeremy Au: (17:58)
I agree about trying out all the jobs to see if you like them or not. I remember reading about being a vaccine scientist. I got the chance to shadow one and I realized that being in a lab wasn’t a fun job for an extrovert and the way I wanted to solve things. So, you try all these different things and you throw away your legal education and start from scratch again. How did that work out?

Charlotte Trudgill: (18:35)
I literally quit on the last day of my probation. When I was interviewing Grab with the last on the last week of my probation, as soon as I got the offer, I started with Grab. I think I quit on the Friday and started with Grab on the Monday. Within a month of being at the firm, I knew that it wasn’t for me and it was heart wrenching because I put so much work into my degree. I had publications I was doing all of this research around law & IP and commodities law even. And I was intellectually very excited about law. But when it came to practicing it and not just practicing it but also the culture of where I was the various limitations that I had as well. I had to wear heels and a suit. It just didn’t really fit with who I was growing up, so I tried really hard. I tried really hard to fit into that. And I think I was upset that I didn’t fit into it. The first thing I thought was there’s something wrong with me. Why can’t I just be normal like everyone else and fit in this God damned box and just earned my salary and keep going and just stop trying to want to do things differently like stop trying to want to make an impact in the world but that feeling was too strong. I had to break up with my legal career, we went through a breakup. It was a little traumatic.

Jeremy Au: (20:14)
That must have been a tough one. You spent all this time fighting for your degree, your job everyone thinks is prestigious, everyone is happy for you. It’s a nice ladder, you keep going for the next 20 years of your life.

Charlotte Trudgill: (20:40)
This is it. This is my identity. And I remember I was talking to one of the partners was mentoring me and he said something that for me was the a-ha moment I have to. I have to make the switch now. I’m not waiting. I had people telling me all around stick it out for two years, just stick it out. You need to build the skill set. You just need to become a professional. Stop being a millennial, inside I was like no shut up, but then everyone was telling me something different and then. I was in the partners office and he had all of these accolades. And he said to me, who am I? Without this firm? I’d be nothing without this firm, and for me that was the a-ha moment that I’m not going to spend the next. I remember I wanted to become partner in six years. I even had an ambitious goal that just to be good at whatever I was doing. I thought I’m not gonna slave away for six years to then have an identity crisis of who am I without this law firm because I’m not my career and my values certainly didn’t align with what I was doing, especially with the patents that I was registering as well. They weren’t all net positives for the world.

Jeremy Au: (22:03)
Wow, what was that like? I mean hearing what you said, who would I be without this firm? What was going through your mind?

Charlotte Trudgill: (22:09)
It was like being given guidance not to do what this person did. But it’s interesting because the person said it as if it was something to be proud of, but I immediately saw it from the opposite point of view that no, actually, I don’t view my life or my career and my identity that way. And I think since then I have worked really hard to understand what’s important to me as a person, as my sort of mission on this planet and aligning every day to those values. So in one element or another I think now with building Jackett and on my mission to make education more inclusive, it’s that ikigai, everything comes into alignment in terms of what I’m good at, my experience. What are my values and how do I as a person create more value in the world and the people around me and that intersection is just happening now. But since then I’ve been on a journey to build the components to bring it together. The Grab component was how long can you go without burning out working in a fast paced environment, working with very ambitious, smart, incredible people and being confident around them, creating something new, building out operations like these are all skill sets and information that I acquired over time to really do what I’m doing now and at Facebook, that was how you build a great company. How you build a great culture. How do you become a great leader and what’s your management style? How do you build a team? And so the scrappiness of tech and the more graceful management leadership style needed to build a really good company and startup was, yeah, just the perfect combination, really.

Jeremy Au: (24:24)
You said it meant something to him, but it meant the opposite to you and that kickstarted the journey for you. I had a similar dynamic where I went to my Bain partner’s home, we were sitting around a table and realized that he wasn’t home all the time. So, to him, this was a special meal as well. As a Bain partner, you’re travelling all across the region. No, this is a special meal for me, but this is your home, it shouldn’t be a special meal for you. The conversation was about the fact that he doesn’t see the kids and wife. That’s terrible. I’m going to make this beautiful house, beautiful family, and not see the home or the kids for like three quarters of a month. That was my moment of that version

Charlotte Trudgill: (25:30)
Yeah, that realisation that the traditional path has a lot more to it that people cover up.

Jeremy Au: (25:41)
Yeah. Some people love it, but you don’t love it the same way. I had another friend who love living out of his suitcase and he lived in hotels all the time and he was very happy with that. I was like well, you’re perfect, keep going.

Charlotte Trudgill: (26:01)
He’s perfect for it. There’s always a different way of doing things. There’s no one way in anything. Yeah, getting that exposure early on was very valuable. I did get the opposite advice when I joined Facebook. My managing director for Thailand who is one of the most impressive leaders, if not the most impressive leader I’ve worked with, told me - stop being a millennial. Stop jumping around. Stay in this job for at least two years. Become a bloody professional and then figure out what you want to do next. He said stick it out. It’s going to be really hard, but just stick it out because you’re going to get what you need here. And he told me that I think within the first few weeks of me joining the company and after six months I was already getting bored. I was like, OK, I’ve figured this thing out so. What’s next guys? But I had this commitment in my head two years, two years. So I found different routes within. Think they called it as opposed to climbing the ladder. It was climbing the jungle gym. Think that’s Sheryl’s terminology, but jumping from account management to what can I do within account management that were exciting projects so bringing in alpha beta products, partnering with innovative advertisers in Thailand, and showcasing them at F8 for example? And all of these things that drove me to maximize the opportunity and go deeper in the role in the skills that I was building. So there’s a moment for different moment, right?

Jeremy Au: (27:47)
Yeah. So, your drive to become a founder, is that where it started?

Charlotte Trudgill: (28:03)
To be a startup in technology founder, yes, that’s where it started

Jeremy Au: (28:11)
You worked at a high growth company and at Facebook, which is big tech, and so you probably have met a lot of founders and now you’re effectively one year into your journey as a founder. Would you like to compare and contrast what you were thinking about what a founder was like versus what it actually is?

Charlotte Trudgill: (28:30)
I think if I could go back and talk to myself when I was in my really nice corner office in the firm overlooking the Bangkok River. If I could go back and talk to myself then I would say do it now. It was because all of the knowledge I had gained throughout working at Facebook, it’s all information that is available online. You can find mentorship in other ways. There are communities now where you can find mentors or things like cool things like Lunch Club, where you can meet mentors on there as well that I’ve been doing. There are alternative ways to acquire that knowledge and those skills, but I was so afraid to do it then because I thought that I didn’t have the credibility wouldn’t have the confidence you know. I’ve never been exposed to it before, and I needed to take these steps to build that confidence as well. I’d say, yeah, I’d say maybe go to Grab and then do it. Don’t wait. Do it and fail and then do it again. I think when I eased into the startup journey so when I was at Facebook actually it goes back to when I was at Grab. I started this organic tea e-commerce business just to test out if I wanted to actually run my own business ‘cause maybe not everyone wants to run a business, right? It’s a certain lifestyle as well. You have to make a lot of compromises. It’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears. It’s really difficult. Do I really want to do this? So just like dip my toes in. At the time I wasn’t drinking coffee. So I was looking for these random like lifestyle changes just to shock my system. Just a bit of excitement, but anyway, I wasn’t drinking coffee and I was looking for low caffeinated drinks and not included things like. Genmaicha organic Japanese tea so it was sourcing this tea and I was selling it on Amazon. I built the brand I was using, what little I knew about managing a business online and building an operation, setting up a company registering the IP for my brand. Going through those steps and understanding that I actually do want to do this, I do want to run my own business, owned my own business, create something that is my own and share it with the world. And at that time was organic tea and ironically I had this one flavor that’s called the stress soother, which was panned down in lemongrass and every time. Someone bought the product on Amazon. I would check the post code that it was delivered to and there was this huge concentration of the stress soother, like in Silicon Valley and like Palo Alto kind of area. That was really funny. Yeah. So I knew that I wanted to run my own business and so I’ve done these like little tests along the way stress tests and when I was at Facebook I did start this side hustle this side project where I thought OK machine learning and AI. What are the applications for that in education? So I started learning Python and then realized that I was never going to be the one to build this thing. So OK, you have technical cofounder and just sort of went down the list and what else do I need to learn? So I started connecting with my network and other startup founders that had been through the process and what mistakes can I learn from them and easing into it? It wasn’t just that one day I quit my job and I’m doing a startup. I had to mitigate the risks along the way as well. I think, especially living in a place like Singapore, it probably wouldn’t be wise to just quit your job into a startup.

Jeremy Au: (32:27)
Feels like you’re contradicting yourself here, you started with my advice would be to just go now…and yet…maybe not. What factors would you say makes it more positive versus be more thoughtful?

Charlotte Trudgill: (32:44)
I think then I had less to lose. I think then if I started, I would have probably failed and learned a lot. That’s how I feel because I would really have no idea what I was doing and would have learned through trying to figure it out and making more mistakes than I’m probably making now because of. Everything that I had learned, you know throughout my career so. It’s a different approach, maybe I would have ended up in the same place anyway, who knows? Especially, you know moving. I think I knew that I had to leave Facebook this year to start this because if I’d stayed any longer, I’d have more to lose. That’s how I felt any when I joined. I set a goal for myself. OK, by 30 I’m going to go out and start my venture and then. When you know Circuit Breaker came, we were in lock down. I was having this sort of existential moment. No, this is the moment you just got. It’s gotta be right now.

Jeremy Au: (33:49)
What does it mean to have too much to lose?

Charlotte Trudgill: (33:52)
It goes pretty deep because growing up it was really we were actually living on the fringe. Not the fun fringe. There was no concept of security, so some months we’d have to buckle down. Other months, we could have lunch somewhere. It was this constant battle for financial security growing up and through that you build a survival mindset, and that’s probably why in everything that I’ve done, I’ve fought for it as hard as I can, ‘cause that’s something that is in my DNA since I was a kid. You just fight for everything to survive, and unlearning that has been a long journey because if you’re stuck on the survival mindset, it’s difficult to see the opportunities and upside and possibilities, so it’s not until now that I’ve really sort of unlearned it and I’m able to see different ways of being successful. Different ways of acquiring wealth, of having a successful career. With that survival mindset, you just kind of see what’s in front of you. Yeah, if I could go back to when I was in the law office, I would say get rid of this shit. Just do it as well so. There’s a multitude of things I’ve had to learn and unlearn. Being that pillar of stability and security for my family as well, there’s a responsibility to that and I knew that as I get older, that responsibility would increase. This was really sort of that moment to take the risk and do something that where I had no security and my parents are still young and they’re doing fine and everything was already fine in my head that I could say, OK, let’s focus on doing what really matters to me and not involves taking this step which when I look at it objectively, it wasn’t really a risk because I had built this financial runway for myself already saying, OK, well if I if I fail I’ve still got X many years of runway to go without having to join, find another job. And so I was mitigating all these risks in my head already. So when I took the step I was feeling very comfortable with my decision because I thought about all the different scenarios.

Jeremy Au: (36:26)
Do you feel this drive to create stability was because of that less stable dynamic on the financial side?

Charlotte Trudgill: (36:40)
Yeah, it did impact quite a lot up until the last couple of years when I tried to break out of that. It’s very difficult to break out of…especially starting a career and in corporate, there were a lot of comforts and benefits and perks, everything was feeling very nice and comfortable. Part of me was saying finally you’ve made it. Another part of me was thinking this is just the first step.

Jeremy Au: (37:18)
First step and often the hardest one. Could you tell us about a time where you had to be BRAVE?

Charlotte Trudgill: (37:27)
I feel that now I have to take a first step every day. Building a startup from zero to one. Every day. Is the first step. Being brave everyday to battle everything that comes my way from my own doubts and fears and fear of failure to external doubts and validations and validations. There’s just a mix of things that happen in one day in the life of a very early stage startup founder that, mentally, I have to be prepared every day when I wake up and I drink my coffee. OK, whatever comes. We’re going to fight it. We’re going to figure it out. And also being the CEO, you’re telling everyone we’re going to fight it. We’re going to figure it out and then inside, thinking, OK? We’ve got to figure it out, so I think being brave to face that everyday. And to then go to sleep knowing that I have to do it again the next day. But it's like a good. It's a good kind of excitement. It's not daunting. It’s not like in my previous job, it was the Sunday scaries like oh Monday’s gonna start again. Now Saturday Sunday starts. I’m so excited to fight, to be brave, and I think that resilience and grit just comes through practice. I don’t think that even two or three years ago I would have the kind of mental stamina to do what I’m doing now. Because working across emerging markets, the complexity that I was facing from tax, legal political risks, challenges, people all in one room speaking a different language and figuratively and trying to navigate all of the complexity that comes with working in an emerging market where you have all of these stakeholders and you’re trying to achieve something and you’re pushing really hard and nothing is happening and you keep pushing, pushing, pushing, and three quarters later explodes. That experience for me told me that I can trust my intuition. I know how to make good decisions quickly and trust those decisions as well and understand how to analyse if I made a mistake and accept it and move on, and it’s just sort of this this cycle, which I’m sure you understand as well. So yeah, that built the mental stamina for me to do what I’m doing now, every day.

Jeremy Au: (40:17)
Wow. Amazing, Charlotte. Thanks so much for sharing. Wrapping things up here, I’d love to paraphrase 3 big themes that heard from this conversation. The first is thank you so much for sharing what it was like to grow up in Phuket as a kid and the educational journey that you had both in the legal sense for your degree, but also in the sense of the culture shock as well as a reverse culture shock of growing up in Southeast Asia and London. I think it’s interesting to see that and see you as a child, as someone who’s learning and also someone who is also teaching. The second thing is thank you so much for sharing a lot about the career decisions along the way, I think the thoughtfulness around what you did at the time, how you made certain decisions about who would I be without this firm, for example, being like an epiphany moment for you was really interesting, but also like how you would go back in time and think through those dynamics again. Not necessarily with the most straightforward advice, of just like go now yet be mindful of all these things. Your younger self is just like do I go or not go? Humans are not robots, right? We have multiple thoughts and one trade off each time. And lastly thanks so much for sharing about the bravery of the many small moments you made, which is ranging from obviously choosing to be a founder, how to self-regulate as a leader and how to think through how to prepare and become a founder and technology leader. Thank you so much, Charlotte.

Charlotte Trudgill: (42:02)
Thank you for having me, appreciate it.