It starts with ‘you don't know what you don't know’. The legal side of things tend to be very opaque and very inaccessible. If you try to Google ‘what do I need to know as a Start-Up founder?’, you probably won’t find it unless you land on a SeedLegals page. It's so opaque. As a founder, you know that legal is important. Unless you have some sort of legal background or you have been a business owner before, you probably don't know the full extent of it. That's the attraction for me anyway because I get a lot of personal satisfaction when I sit down with a founder and I say, “Okay, tell me what you want to achieve”.
Hsiang Low is Head of Asia-Pacific at SeedLegals, one of the hottest legaltech offerings which provides the legals for creating, funding and running startups. Hsiang oversees SeedLegals' operations and strategy across Hong Kong and Singapore. He is also a qualified solicitor in England & Wales, having trained and practiced for over a decade at magic circle lawfirm Linklaters.
Previously, Hsiang was a founding member and Co-Head of Asia at Nakhoda, an in-house legal tech startup at Linklaters. He led the roll-out of ISDA Create (now CreateIQ) across the Asia Pacific region, an industry-leading and award winning online negotiation platform built in partnership with the International Swaps and Derivatives Association (ISDA). He also serves as a steering committee member of the Asia-Pacific Legal Innovation and Technology Association (ALITA).
With over a decade of a unique combination of international legal practising experience and technological product expertise, Hsiang has helped to deliver cutting-edge and game-changing products In London, Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo and across Asia.
Jeremy Au (00:29)
Hi Hsiang. I'm happy to have you on the show and I’m really pleased to have someone from Malaysia sharing about your journey as a lawyer and in tech. I would love for you to introduce yourself in one minute.
Hsiang Low (00:41)
Hi Jeremy. Thanks for having me and it's so great to be here. My name is Hsiang. I grew up in Malaysia. I was there for 18 years of my life before I moved to the United Kingdom. I studied in an international school in Malaysia. I loved growing up there. As I grew older and looked for more opportunities, I was fortunate enough to have my parents allowing me to go to the United Kingdom to study where I went to university in London.
I did a degree in philosophy and economics and then did a conversion course into law where I then started my career as a lawyer practicing in London. I worked for a major law firm called Linklaters and did that for quite a number of years. I was at Linklaters for 12 years where in that time I spent the better part of it practicing as a structured finance lawyer.
Later on, I pivoted to legal tech. I got that opportunity because I helped to create an in-house legal tech start up at Linklaters called the Nakhoda. Our mandate was to look for innovative solutions using technology for lawyers.
I got to work with data scientists, computer programmers, product managers, and I absolutely loved it. That gave me the bug for legal tech and product design. I did that for six years. Some of that time was in London and some of that was in Asia.
When I moved to Hong Kong, I looked after the APAC rollout of the tools that we created and I frequented between Singapore, Japan, Thailand and of course Hong Kong, where I was physically located.
I did that for a number of years and I really loved it. A big lesson for me was about educating people to use technology especially in a traditional industry like law, where the mind-set is usually very traditional. How you convince people to do something different was a big lesson for me and I really enjoyed that journey.
Then, I discovered SeedLegals, which is another legal tech that focuses on start-ups and helping start-ups with the legal journey, especially around fundraising. When I discovered SeedLegals, I thought this is an amazing opportunity. It’s a great company which at that time only existed in Europe.
I said to the founders, “have you thought about expanding? Have you thought about Asia?”. Fast forward. We sort of explored all of this and landed in Singapore. I joined the company and helped to bring the technology and the service into Southeast Asia.
I am now the head of SeedLegals in APAC. We have offices in Singapore and Hong Kong. We are now very excited to help start-ups across the region get going.
Jeremy Au (03:19)
Amazing. What was it like growing up in Malaysia up until you were 18?
Hsiang Low (03:23)
It was amazing. I loved growing up. I actually do not have any bad memories of Malaysia. I love my country. I encourage anyone listening to this to come and eat in Malaysia. The food was amazing and it still is. I have to say that COVID was very tough because I was away for three years and in those three years I missed the food so much. Don't tell my mother because I said to my mom, “I just miss the food” and she says, “Well, what about me?”.
Honestly, Malaysia has that joy. I also think that there is a communal spirit about Malaysians where it’s very welcoming and very friendly. That was a big part of shaping who I am and how I became who I am. I think there is this curiosity about other people wanting to get to know others, welcoming them into your home and into your lives. What I discovered leaving Malaysia is that no matter which country or which city you are in, if you discover another Malaysian, there is a kindred spirit or a bond that comes from what it's like growing up in Malaysia where there is a melting pot of different cultures, races and backgrounds coming together.
One thing that is different about my education in Malaysia is that for those of us who are fortunate enough, we were encouraged to go abroad. That's partly due to the geopolitical situation in Malaysia. Growing up we were always taught that it's really good for you if you can go abroad and get the experience to either study or work. My parents instilled a mind-set in me and I have always tried my best to look for an opportunity abroad. I was fortunate enough to be able to travel and experience United Kingdom. I have been away from Malaysia for almost 20 years now and it has been an amazing journey.
Jeremy Au (05:14)
What is interesting is that you followed the route of many Malaysians who are studying abroad, especially in United Kingdom. What is interesting also is that you chose to be a lawyer as an undergraduate. What triggered that thought of wanting to be a lawyer or to pursue a legal profession?
Hsiang Low (05:31)
I'm going to say something quite controversial which is that I did not. I actually went abroad to study my first undergraduate degree which was in philosophy and economics. How that came about was because my father was a lawyer and I said to my father before I went abroad, “I don't want to be a lawyer because you're a lawyer and I don't want to follow this traditional path that the son follows the same route as the father”. I did three years in philosophy and economics around the time of the Lehman’s credit crunch.
When I graduated, I had two choices. Either I pursued what I had done in philosophy and followed academia, which I did not want to do or I use economics and go into finance and banking, which, as I said during the Lehman's crisis was probably a really bad time to do it.
I had to think of another alternative. We were really encouraged to stay abroad as long as possible and I had to find a way to stay in England and London where I really wanted to be. The visa requirements are quite tough. You need to be earning a high enough salary and should be working for an international organisation which limited it to a very few. One of those being in the legal industry and that got me curious about jumping into the legal profession.
Then, I started exploring and I discovered these international Magic Circle law firms and they would sponsor my visa and my law school. Obviously, it was a great profession but more importantly for me at the time, Linklaters, the firm that I chose was expanding very rapidly around the world with new offices everywhere and they offered the opportunity to travel and to have that international experience.
That got me hooked into joining this profession because I wanted to be exposed, I wanted to travel, I wanted to work with clients across the world and I wanted to do cross-border deals. Well, I actually did that. I was always working on cross-border deals. It was very enjoyable to meet new people, to learn how they think and also to work with companies all over the world.
We would often have front page FTE deals that I was working on and it was very exciting. At the same time, I was also developing a lot of very transferable skills. Negotiation, analytics, communication, writing, reading smaller fonts and actually trying to understand what that means and analysing what that means for the client. All of that shaped me to be able to get all those transferable skills and then move on into other aspects of my life.
Jeremy Au (08:12)
Amazing. It's interesting because your father was a lawyer and you didn't want to be one but then you sort of got there. Thank you for being so honest and frank about what were the realities of having to make a choice.
I'm curious about your perspective when you watched your father being a lawyer versus you being a lawyer today. I did the math a little bit. As a kid, you probably observed him working as a lawyer when he was roughly the same age as you today. Are there any parallels, reflections or echoes through time after becoming a lawyer and you being a lawyer now?
Hsiang Low (08:45)
I suppose I should touch a little bit more by saying that my father was a barrister and I became a solicitor. They are two very different aspects of lawyering. To share with the audience, barristers tend to be the ones that go to court and argue the case and defend an accused whereas as a solicitor, I tend to work in large teams where I work with more documentations and negotiations. Since I was in the area of finance, it tended to be more towards deal-making. In that sense it was different in terms of what we were doing but the similarities are that you are just helping someone else. You're helping someone else achieve what they set out to be, whether if it's trying to stay away from jail, if it’s trying to buy a large company, to take out a large loan or whatever it is.
You are just trying to help someone else. That is ultimately what drew me into the profession. It's also what I enjoy doing, whether as a big lawyer helping my clients achieve whatever they are trying to achieve or helping a start-up founder trying to get his business idea going but needing help with complicated laws. It's the aspect of helping others that really appealed me to this profession.
Jeremy Au (10:01)
If you had a family of your own, would you also tell your child to be a lawyer one day?
Hsiang Low (10:06)
I would not stop him or her from doing it. I would do the opposite of that. It's difficult to say don't do it and to say do it. I think I have learned a lot of challenges in this profession and if I had a child or if someone came to me for advice, I would be very candid and honest.
It is a tough profession, very demanding and it is getting very competitive to enter and to stay within. Gone are the days where you work, climb to profession, you becoming partner within 6 to 8 years then you sort of sit back, play golf and bring in clients.
That doesn't exist anymore. When I look at my peers and those above me in the profession, they work extremely hard. It’s definitely high pressure and challenging. I think a lot comes down to the kind of person you are and what you're trying to achieve.
If you thrive on that sort of pressure and deal-making while also trying to come up with creative solution, then yes. This is a great profession for you. No matter what happens, you will still get a lot of transferable skills and you will be set up for a really good transition into whatever other profession you choose to be. Whether you are going into a start up like I did, you are going to start a small business or you are going to pivot into any other profession.
I often have lawyers or law grads ask me this very similar question. “Should I apply for a training contract?”, which is the graduate programme to become a lawyer. “If I have a training contract? Should I even take it up? Should I finish those two years?” Often, the answer is yes, you should try because if you don't try, you don't know.
It's just a couple of years of your life and it's going to be a great experience for you. You are young. I'm still young and I'm still learning. There's no such thing as a bad experience. I don't discourage people from the law profession. I think you just need to go into it with your eyes open.
Jeremy Au (12:05)
What is interesting is that you did enter the legal profession with both eyes open and you did put in just a couple of years of life and eventually transitioned to more of the technological side of the business in terms of looking at start-ups and legal tech. Could you explain how that transition happened from the partnership approach to the market technology approach.
Hsiang Low (12:25)
For me, I always wanted to see the bigger picture of things. While I have mentioned really good things about the legal profession, it's one aspect of running a business and developing a technology business at the end of the day.
I was always curious about tech, running a business and the strategy to go to the market. Building a team, working with competitors and working with partners was very intriguing to me.
And as a lawyer, you see a part of it but you don't see the weeds of it. By the time a client comes to you and asks you to document something or negotiate something, a lot of the commercials are usually already done.
It was that curiosity that made me want to explore further. I was just a geek. I enjoyed looking into technology. When I was young, I used to play a lot of computer games. One of those types of games was actually a text based multi-user dungeon. It’s really just text. You type in commands such as go left and the description comes up on the screen. You read the description, ‘you are on a farm. You see a tree on your left and a path on your right. Do you walk towards the tree or towards the path?’. You decide to walk to the tree, type it in, and you take a step forward.
I really enjoyed it. It was the text and it was the creativity that was speaking to me. I just thought that technology is actually not that complicated. You can create something amazing and have such a wonderful experience as a child when I was going up playing these games.
Jeremy Au (15:28)
You sort of got me with the whole flashback to multi-user dungeon mod games that I used to play. I totally understand what you mean by that. What is interesting is that you built technology.
What has been the difference in personal and professional lifestyle or the approach that you had to do when you moved from one side of the business to a more technology focussed approach which in this case is legal tech compared to the legal industry.
Hsiang Low (15:59)
Great question, Jeremy. I worked in a big institution or a big corporate. With that comes hierarchy and structure. It comes with a very nice office and you are expected to be a part of all of that. Yes, there are more remote working these days because of COVID but you're in an office and there's a lot of structure and support around you. We have HR, accounting teams and finance teams in a big law firm. Even in London, we even had a doctor's office, a laundromat and a gym downstairs. Essentially, you didn't even need to leave the office if you didn't want to.
You could sleep there. We had beds for you to sleep in. Now I work for a start-up and I spend most of my days working from home. I roam around to coffee shops. I have a great list of coffee shops in Hong Kong and Singapore to work from and if anybody wants to know that, let me know. I roam around in co-working spaces. My team is fully remote. Half of my team is in Singapore and the other half of my team is in Hong Kong.
We can never always be in the same room at the same time at any one time. How do you make that work and how do you ensure you get the best of in-person meet but at the same time respect and also take advantage of the flexibility of remote working?
I think for me, the biggest challenge as well as opportunity is being more disciplined and structured with my time. I do think there is a certain aspect of going into an office that frames your mind-set.
When I stepped foot into this office, I am in work mode and I am going to get my stuff done very diligently. When I step out of the office, then I have a slightly different mode. However, If I'm working from home all the time, I have to be very disciplined.
Just to my left here, I have a big snack corner with a lot of beers and that is very distracting. Well, how do I actually stay focussed? How do I get stuff done? That is one of the big challenges but at the same time, the flexibility is brilliant.
I get to decide how I spend my time and my day. I have lost a lot of weight in a healthy way since leaving the law firm because I can play tennis, go running and go to the gym. I can fit all of that into my day and yet still be very productive with my team and with my work.
Yes, it’s a double edged sword but at the end of the day it comes down to your own discipline. The other aspect is also just the support that I once took for granted in a big corporate in terms of HR, finance and all the other things.
I was guilty of just taking it for granted. HR just got stuff done. I got my pay on time, approved leave and I got benefits. I just thought this is what it’s like to be working anywhere else. Now in a start-up, I really understand that it’s a real perk and a real benefit. Don't take it for granted. HR is hard and admin is boring but essential.
We still have to make things work within a start-up and I'm very blessed because my team is understanding. Sometimes if things slip because a bit of admin work was missed, we will do our best to correct it. That is where the difference is because I work in a smaller team and everyone is a lot more aware of all the different aspects that goes into running a business as opposed to being a big corporate where you just kind of work in your own silo and your own work stream. I enjoy that. I like the aspect of being more broad, seeing things from a different light, seeing how different people's experiences can come together and make things better. The sum of the parts equals the whole. I really enjoy that collaborative effort in a start-up that is actually necessary.
Jeremy Au (19:47)
Amazing. You really described the experience of a lawyer working at a start-up who is also working on the law side for other start-ups. It’s a bit of a legal inception here. Why work on law for start-ups? All the other start-ups in the world are quite similar.
HR is not working well, the pay is not on time and probably their legal is not really in order as well. What challenges do you normally see of other start-ups who are struggling with basic processes let alone investing in the legal side? What's the picture here?
Hsiang Low (20:21)
I think it starts with ‘you don't know what you don't know’. The legal side of things tend to be very opaque and very inaccessible. If you try to Google ‘what do I need to know as a Start-Up founder?’, you probably won’t find it unless you want to see the ghost page. It's so opaque. As a founder, you know that the legal is important. Unless you have some sort of legal background or you have been a business owner before, you probably don't know the full extent of it.
That's the attraction for me anyway because I get a lot of personal satisfaction when I sit down with a founder and I say, “okay, tell me what you want to achieve”. We have that conversation and not very long after that, I can open their eyes and tell them a few more things that they should be aware of. I'll give them a few more ideas of how they could achieve what they want to achieve in a legal and also a commercially viable way.
I think that's very attractive to me. Why I am interested in start-ups for me personally is because when I was in a big international law firm, the clients that I worked for tended to be much more sophisticated. They tend to do whatever it is they were trying to achieve day in and day out. They sort of already knew what they needed to do and then they engaged me and the law firm to do it.
However, here the start-ups do not know much about it. When you can open their eyes and help them, it's very rewarding because you are really helping people who needs most of the help. When I was working in a big law firm, I was very expensive but the clients varying from private equity firms, large financial institutions and banks that we worked for could afford them. Now we're working for start-ups, and it's not that they are poor but capital is stretched most of the time but most start-up founders, especially at the early stages before SeedLegals existed, had two options.
One, they have to find a law firm and it could be quite expensive or two, they go online, try downloading something and then tailoring it themselves. They might even ask a buddy who went to law school, “Oh, do you mind helping me? I know that you specialise in divorce cases but I'm trying to set up a company. Can you help me just do this?”. Neither of those are really viable or good options for a start-up founder and that's where I think the appeal of what we're doing is there because we can use the technology and make the service a lot more affordable. Therefore, the start-ups can take the benefit of the legal services that we provide. Everything that is on the platform has been vetted by lawyers and it's in compliance with local jurisdiction laws.
More importantly, since we have been doing it for many years and we have been collecting data along that time. The documents and the services that we provide are all informed and driven by market practice. We serviced over 35,000 start-ups and investors in the years that has gone by.
We opened 50 funding rounds a week now globally and since we are a tech company, we are collecting that data to improve the product as we go along. The next start-up that comes along really takes the benefit of that accumulated knowledge and experience sharing.
They are really getting cutting edge services at an affordable price point because we can use the technology to scale up the provision of the service. That is really appealing. We are really helping people who need the most help.
Jeremy Au (23:56)
That is obviously better for founders who are making do with online templates. In some ways it is cheaper than the cost of damages of getting an actual lawyer and in some ways it is faster because using technology here. It’s just that there are a lot of legal tech start-ups going after it.
There is Carter that is going after some aspects of it. I think the US has a whole bunch of firms. Obviously, we have yet to see the same extent in Asia-Pacific and in Southeast Asia. Is it because the market is too fragmented or is the market behind? What do you think about that?
Hsiang Low (24:32)
I think we certainly differentiate ourselves from some of the other legal tech players in the market. We are not a document template provider. We actually take our founders through the entire lifecycle. For example, a fund raising.
From the moment you set a cap table to creating your term sheets, signing a subscription agreement and then doing all your filings afterwards. Along the way, we are providing services to help the founders through that negotiation. We explain to them what the terms mean.
We are giving them data and benchmarking against the market to say that the market standard for this term is X days or X percent. That is where the differentiation comes in where it's not just the document itself being provided.
Why Asia? It's still up and coming. There are attempts to come into the market. You are right. There's a lot of fragmentation here. Each ASEAN country has their own laws, their own customs, market practises, and language which is a challenge as well.
These are the challenges that we also faced coming into this market but we have to start somewhere. When we were coming up with the business plan, it was a no brainer to start in Singapore because of a number of reasons.
One, Singapore has the common law system, which is similar to the United Kingdom. It means that the transferability and interoperability of the platform is a lot easier to localise. Also, English language is a similar reason. Singapore is a hub for start-ups and it doesn't matter whether the start-up is in Indonesia, Vietnam or Cambodia.
If the start-ups are really going to scale, they're going to look towards Singapore, whether as a regional hub or whether as a place for investment and fundraising. We often see that start-ups in other parts of South Asia will come to Singapore and incorporate the holding company so that investment can be taken through that Singaporean holding company.
That is why as a strategy we chose Singapore. We said that as long as we're here where the investors are, the start-ups will also come and as long as we are Singapore compliant, that will appeal to the start-ups and the investors.
That's part of the business strategy for us. Longer term expansion is especially on the cards. We are looking at the neighbouring countries where there are a lot of start-ups and looking at how we can continue to service them there as well.
Jeremy Au (26:55)
Since we are getting to the last chapter here, could you share with us a time that you have been brave personally?
Hsiang Low (27:01)
The story that comes to my mind is making this choice to jump from big law firms to start-ups. It was a two-year journey for me to explore leaving big law firms. Like I said, there are a lot of creature comforts as well as a lot of certainty that you get by being in a big corporate and the path that is set up for you. Of course, it's challenging, it's competitive and you still have to be good at what you do but if you are good and hardworking, you can get to the top of that ladder within a corporate.
Without sounding too arrogant, I think that was available to me. If I continued to plough away, I think I could have made something of myself within that journey. To uproot all of that and to go into something that is challenging and uncertain as going into a start-up was a big decision for me. It took a while for me to figure out if this is the right thing for me, which is the right start-up for me, what do I actually want to achieve within the start-up and what do I want to do beyond that?
That's where I had a lot of self-reflection and a lot of deep discussions with family, friends and my mentors. For anyone who is of going through something like this, I highly recommend seeking a coach where you can have someone who can challenge you and ask you the deep questions.
What are your goals? What are you trying to achieve? What are the challenges that you foresee? It was terrifying to think, “oh my gosh, I'm going to leave all of this behind”. Also, I have a really good paycheque every month and I could expect that to keep increasing as well.
To give all of that up is scary but for me, I think I described some of the reasons why I left and went to find a different path. I'm just very curious. For me, the decision came down to if I don't give it a shot and I fast forward 10 - 20 years from now and I look back and I say, “you had that opportunity 20 years ago and you didn't take it”. What would I say to myself? I think that would be a regret. When that realisation came to me, I just thought, I have to do it now.
If I don't try, I will always regret it even if I do not get to the outcome that I thought I would get to. Notice that I did not say fail because I don't think you can actually fail in this. If I do not get to that outcome that I thought I would get to, I will get to a different outcome. It would still be a great outcome because I would have all the experience that I had down this journey.
I would learn new things, meet lots of new people, be exposed to new industries and be exposed to different ways of thinking and different cultures. That can only set me up for more success in the future. When I frame it that way, the decision became a lot less scary. The fear of me regretting ten years from now was actually what really drove me in the end and to make this so-called brave decision because it would have been much tougher to just stay and regret it later on.
Another big part of it is also just understanding the exposure and experience that you can get from this. Now, I get to work with my team of people who are experts in marketing, sales, customer support, tech, and product. These are things that as a traditional lawyer, I would not get exposed to. Within the first six months of me joining SeedLegals and working with my marketing team, I started to learn about SEO, PPC and all these acronyms that sort of jumped out at you.
I was amazed at this which is another world of marketing of optimisation that I never even thought I would come across as a lawyer. It was exciting to learn new things. You are working at a tech company and you learn about tech sprints and how to do things in an agile manner. You learn how GitHub works, what sits behind the front end of a tech platform and how the back end and the front end can interoperate. You get to work with partners and you sort of talk about integrations, whether it's at a service level or at a technology level with APIs.
Again, these are very exciting things that you don't really get as a lawyer. Even six months into my job, I knew that I made the right choice because I was learning so many new things.
If you ask me, just be brave. Ask yourself why this is what you want to do and then take the leap because the you would not regret the experience you get taking that leap. You will have much more opportunities and doors that would open after that.
Jeremy Au (31:40)
What is interesting is that you shared about how asking yourself the questions that are hard to ask. What would you say are the hard questions that people do not ask themselves? Could you share some examples of those questions so that people can reflect on it after this podcast?
Hsiang Low (32:00)
Sure. I think given this is an Asian audience, the first big question is always about money. I am not going to lie because as a lawyer, I made a good paycheque. The first question that people and myself ask is can you afford to take a pay cut?
First of all, if you are earning a lot of money and you take a pay cut from a lot of money, you still earn a decent amount of money. Ask yourself, how much money do you really need? I was fortunate enough to work for a period of time now, so I have savings. You have to also be sensible, practical and try to map it out for yourself. Lawyers are not traditionally known to be good at finance or financial tools such as Excel and modelling all that out.
If you are one of those, then I recommend that you find a friend to help you model it out. You will see that you do not need that much money to live, especially while you are in the earlier decades of your life.
If you want to achieve the things that I said I wanted to achieve, then maybe see this as an investment. For me, one of the other things that I was exploring in those two years of asking myself was if I want to make this kind of jump?
I thought about doing an MBA. Two things about the MBA and why I didn't do it was because it is very expensive. I could not convince myself that I would benefit sufficiently by throwing all that money into graduation school. Also, I guess it was during COVID. The networking aspect of it would be lost because I would not be able to do it in person. Instead, I found a job where I'm actually learning all the skills that I probably would have learnt on the MBA, only now I am getting paid to do it.
In some ways I'm actually getting paid to study, to get experience and education. I would argue that I would come out better than maybe a graduate from a MBA school after this experience. It's about framing the mind-set and the perspective.
I think the other hard question to ask is also about the external appearance and the external validation. Again, from an Asian perspective, being a lawyer is prestigious. People look up to you and respect you for it. I carry pride when I say that I am a lawyer. You have to also ask yourself if you are prepared to switch that? Are you prepared to reinvent yourself and relabel yourself? There will be aspects of society that will have a different perspective.
Those are the hard questions you have to ask yourself and be prepared for change. For me, I look at the risk reward and I think I am actually going to be better for this therefore I'm willing to take the sacrifice.
Jeremy Au (34:47)
Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I love to wrap this up by recapping the 3 big themes.
First, thank you so much for sharing about your time growing up in Malaysia, your remembrances of your father's own path and how you actually made your own set of decisions. It’s not based solely on the realities but also the pragmatism to become a lawyer yourself eventually and what you learnt there.
The second, of course, is thank you for sharing with us quickly about the legal profession, legal tech, start-up law and a lot of the various dimensions that one should be careful about in terms of picking the right provider but also thoughtful about the more advanced tips about what to do if you are in the industry itself.
Lastly, thank you so much for sharing deep career questions, some self-reflection around your personal income from how much you make to how much I need to survive and to what is it that I want to do with my life. Thank you so much for coming on The Brave show.
Hsiang Low (35:48)
Thank you, Jeremy.